Is ripeness better (more acceptable) in darker fruits?

[mike_pobega]

Thanks, Wes, that makes me think back to my minds 'note’s of many of the wines that I have had in my life and wonder if color density has been a factor of ripeness as well, and I only even ask since reading your second criteria in your Nebbiolo example: picked late. Initially, I will start on the shallow (color) side of that spectrum and as recent as last week when I opened Sandler’s 2015 Bien Nacido that’s balance was amazingly deft and in-tuned and color so ‘not intense’ and now wonder what my overall impression would have been had I tasted from a black glass. I never seen need for one of those glasses but it may be fun to experiment. Thanks for the input.

[Merrill_Lindquist]

Chris, to me, I just don’t think you can define “ripeness” at all. What is “ripe?” A friend of mine loves her bananas when they are “ripe.” To her that means the mushy, sweet, turning-to-brown banana that you can smell while it is sitting in a bowl. To me, for my definition/taste, the banana must be firm, not too sweet, and yellow-just-turning-from-green. Peaches? For me, a ripe peach must not offer much resistance to the bite, and must have reached the point where the juice will dribble down your chin. Others like them firm and consider my “ripe” peach over the hill.

So on to grapes. To me, it is very difficult to assign the word “ripeness” across the board. Your definition or mine? And to infer that some degree of “ripeness” may be better or more acceptable in one type of wine than another just doesn’t mean much. But no harm done…you and others are, of course, free to discuss wine in any terms you like. And so am I.

[John_Morris]

@Wes Barton

As a general statement, I’d say red to black fruit is a factor of ripeness, rather than variety. There are plenty of dark PNs, plenty of red Cabs. But, if you to group varieties by color intensity, Neb would be on the lighter side. When you see darker Nebs, factors may include: sites that lead to thicker skins, late picking, and “cellar stuff”.

Even very ripe nebbiolo is not that dark naturally in hue or density, though nebbiolo aged in barriques tends to be darker because something in the oak fixes the pigments. Thus “modern style” wines tend to be more inky and darker in hue.

[Wes_Barton]

@mike pobega

Thanks, Wes, that makes me think back to my minds 'note’s of many of the wines that I have had in my life and wonder if color density has been a factor of ripeness as well, and I only even ask since reading your second criteria in your Nebbiolo example: picked late. Initially, I will start on the shallow (color) side of that spectrum and as recent as last week when I opened Sandler’s 2015 Bien Nacido that’s balance was amazingly deft and in-tuned and color so ‘not intense’ and now wonder what my overall impression would have been had I tasted from a black glass. I never seen need for one of those glasses but it may be fun to experiment. Thanks for the input.

With something like PN, there’s so many clones available, which provide a vast range of characteristics, including color diversity. An extreme example was the old Varner Hidden Block (100% 115 clone) and Picnic Block (100% 667 clone). The Hidden Blocks tended to be very light in color, often moreso than Windy Oaks. The Picnic Blocks are very dark.

Site can make a huge difference. We’ll be seeing that in action in the near future. The Corvina we’ve been getting comes from a site the skins are very thin, so full extraction of color produces a rosé-looking wine. We had cuttings from that vineyard grafted at a site that should produce grapes with thick skins. It’ll be an interesting comparison, since you can’t get closer in material than that.

With PN, and probably any usually lighter hued grapes, there’s a market expectation that they be darker. Especially for CA wines. I’ve seen many threads over the years where someone is shocked how light in color a Pinot (often from Windy Oaks) is, while the depth in flavor and complexity would seem to indicate the wine should have been darker. There’s a lot of pressure to comply with market expectations, which often, imo, often have negative impacts on the wines. I’m always happy when winemakers ignore that and just make good wines.

Ripening is a bunch of independent progressions. A “general rule” that clumps them together will have plenty of exceptions.

[Brandon_R]

@GregT

Fantastically informative Kim! Thanks! I love understanding this better. As I see it, what’s missing in too many ‘new world’ wines is good acidity. This is changing somewhat recently though.

Based on how many years and what examples?

Stop being argumentative.

[Barry_Paul_Price]

@GregT

Fantastically informative Kim! Thanks! I love understanding this better. As I see it, what’s missing in too many ‘new world’ wines is good acidity. This is changing somewhat recently though.

Based on how many years and what examples?

Based on my subjective experience. But if you’d like to fund a full proper study for which you can get thorough data delivered to you, I am open to discussing just how comprehensive and well-tracked you need it to be. Be advised, it will be costly as my time is valuable

CHEERS!

[Michae1_P0wers]

@John Morris

@Wes Barton

As a general statement, I’d say red to black fruit is a factor of ripeness, rather than variety. There are plenty of dark PNs, plenty of red Cabs. But, if you to group varieties by color intensity, Neb would be on the lighter side. When you see darker Nebs, factors may include: sites that lead to thicker skins, late picking, and “cellar stuff”.

Even very ripe nebbiolo is not that dark naturally in hue or density, though nebbiolo aged in barriques tends to be darker because something in the oak fixes the pigments. Thus “modern style” wines tend to be more inky and darker in hue.

Yeah, I thought the idea that Nebbiolo was dark fruited was somewhat off. But then, I have a problem with the entire premise of this post, at least as to how it syncs with my experience. I’ve always thought of red fruited as being synonymous with higher acidity and less ripeness, and darker fruit to go hand in hand with more ripeness and less acidity. [Edit: which, looking back, is basically what Wes said] This isn’t an exact thing, but more of a continuum. For instance, a Northern Rhone Syrah may offer blackberry flavors and fresh acidity. Even so, it likely displays less acidity than something that screams “red fruit!”

Hi acid - raspberries, red currant, tart cherries, apricot, less ripe peach and nectarine
Medium - strawberries, riper stone fruit
Lower acid - blackberries, ripe cherry, black currants, plums, blueberries

I never think: dark ripe cherry with a lot of acidity, or blueberry with a lot of acidity. I never think low acid raspberry.

[Anton_D]

Liking the thread.

I am following with regard to red wine preferences.

Need some examples for the fun of thinking about it with regard to whites…

What would be a very ripe or overly ripe sauvignon blanc?

Viogneir?

Pinot blanc?

[DougS]

@Merrill Lindquist

Chris, to me, I just don’t think you can define “ripeness” at all. What is “ripe?” A friend of mine loves her bananas when they are “ripe.” To her that means the mushy, sweet, turning-to-brown banana that you can smell while it is sitting in a bowl. To me, for my definition/taste, the banana must be firm, not too sweet, and yellow-just-turning-from-green. Peaches? For me, a ripe peach must not offer much resistance to the bite, and must have reached the point where the juice will dribble down your chin. Others like them firm and consider my “ripe” peach over the hill.

So on to grapes. To me, it is very difficult to assign the word “ripeness” across the board. Your definition or mine? And to infer that some degree of “ripeness” may be better or more acceptable in one type of wine than another just doesn’t mean much. But no harm done…you and others are, of course, free to discuss wine in any terms you like. And so am I.

Mike’s OP seems clear that he’s talking about ripeness in a less>more sort of continuum, not as a yes vs. no question. Anyone here can taste Clos du Val Cabernet alongside Altamura Cabernet and identify one as far riper than the other. Of course there’s a lot of area in between, but the higher and lower ends of the spectrum are quite clearly evident. Each person’s sweet spot for Napa Cab might be different, but the spectrum of potential ripeness is mostly objective. So, I agree that everyone’s preference is only their own, but I don’t think that’s relevant to this thread or makes the topic not worth discussing.

[DougS]

@Anton D

Liking the thread.

I am following with regard to red wine preferences.

Need some examples for the fun of thinking about it with regard to whites…

What would be a very ripe or overly ripe sauvignon blanc?

Viogneir?

Pinot blanc?

Merry Edwards Sauvignon Blanc

almost all Napa Viognier

Hiedler Maximum Weissburgunder from a warm vintage (or pretty much any vintage)

[Eric_Lundblad]

@Wes Barton

(stuff removed)
An extreme example was the old Varner Hidden Block (100% 115 clone) and Picnic Block (100% 667 clone).
(more stuff removed)

The Varner Picnic Blocks are clone 777, not 667.

[mike_pobega]

@Michae1 P0wers

@John Morris

@Wes Barton

As a general statement, I’d say red to black fruit is a factor of ripeness, rather than variety. There are plenty of dark PNs, plenty of red Cabs. But, if you to group varieties by color intensity, Neb would be on the lighter side. When you see darker Nebs, factors may include: sites that lead to thicker skins, late picking, and “cellar stuff”.

Even very ripe nebbiolo is not that dark naturally in hue or density, though nebbiolo aged in barriques tends to be darker because something in the oak fixes the pigments. Thus “modern style” wines tend to be more inky and darker in hue.

Yeah, I thought the idea that Nebbiolo was dark fruited was somewhat off. But then, I have a problem with the entire premise of this post, at least as to how it syncs with my experience. I’ve always thought of red fruited as being synonymous with higher acidity and less ripeness, and darker fruit to go hand in hand with more ripeness and less acidity. [Edit: which, looking back, is basically what Wes said] This isn’t an exact thing, but more of a continuum. For instance, a Northern Rhone Syrah may offer blackberry flavors and fresh acidity. Even so, it likely displays less acidity than something that screams “red fruit!”

Hi acid - raspberries, red currant, tart cherries, apricot, less ripe peach and nectarine
Medium - strawberries, riper stone fruit
Lower acid - blackberries, ripe cherry, black currants, plums, blueberries

I never think: dark ripe cherry with a lot of acidity, or blueberry with a lot of acidity. I never think low acid raspberry.

I love this post, even if I want to disagree with some of it specifically and initially where the fruits may define the acidity level. Lots to take in here and I need to think on it some more. It might just be genius…
Thanks!

[Anton_D]

@Doug Schulman

@Anton D

Liking the thread.

I am following with regard to red wine preferences.

Need some examples for the fun of thinking about it with regard to whites…

What would be a very ripe or overly ripe sauvignon blanc?

Viogneir?

Pinot blanc?

Merry Edwards Sauvignon Blanc

almost all Napa Viognier

Hiedler Maximum Weissburgunder from a warm vintage (or pretty much any vintage)

OK, then I will claim familiarity with ‘very ripe’ based on those examples!

Thank you.

[DougS]

@Michae1 P0wers

@John Morris

@Wes Barton

As a general statement, I’d say red to black fruit is a factor of ripeness, rather than variety. There are plenty of dark PNs, plenty of red Cabs. But, if you to group varieties by color intensity, Neb would be on the lighter side. When you see darker Nebs, factors may include: sites that lead to thicker skins, late picking, and “cellar stuff”.

Even very ripe nebbiolo is not that dark naturally in hue or density, though nebbiolo aged in barriques tends to be darker because something in the oak fixes the pigments. Thus “modern style” wines tend to be more inky and darker in hue.

Yeah, I thought the idea that Nebbiolo was dark fruited was somewhat off. But then, I have a problem with the entire premise of this post, at least as to how it syncs with my experience. I’ve always thought of red fruited as being synonymous with higher acidity and less ripeness, and darker fruit to go hand in hand with more ripeness and less acidity. [Edit: which, looking back, is basically what Wes said] This isn’t an exact thing, but more of a continuum. For instance, a Northern Rhone Syrah may offer blackberry flavors and fresh acidity. Even so, it likely displays less acidity than something that screams “red fruit!”

Hi acid - raspberries, red currant, tart cherries, apricot, less ripe peach and nectarine
Medium - strawberries, riper stone fruit
Lower acid - blackberries, ripe cherry, black currants, plums, blueberries

I never think: dark ripe cherry with a lot of acidity, or blueberry with a lot of acidity. I never think low acid raspberry.

Grenache/Garnacha can get extremely ripe and still show raspberry fruit, it will just be more stewed or liqueur like than in less ripe wines. I don’t usually get much black fruit from that grape even at 15+% ABV. I think there can be a red>black fruit continuum with many grape varieties that will be related to ripeness, but some grapes don’t seem to fit that idea.

[DougS]

Thinking about the red>black fruit as a spectrum idea, I have more examples of varieties for which that isn’t the case (some have been mentioned).

With Pinot Noir, it seems to depend a lot on clone and possibly weather. You can get lots of dark fruit in Grand Crus from the Cote de Nuits, and you can have 15% ABV wines from Santa Rita Hills that are all about red fruit. There are definitely far more important factors here than ripeness.

Sangiovese, Nebbiolo, Barbera, and probably quite a few other Italian grapes seem to be more red fruited in pretty much all cases.

Zinfandel, when not blended, seems to show either mostly red fruit or a combination of red and black fruits in a wide range of ripeness.

While I do agree that red>black fruit is generally very closely related to ripeness for some grapes (the major Bordeaux grapes, Syrah, and Mourvedre, to name a few), this is from absolute.

[John_Morris]

@Doug Schulman

Sangiovese, Nebbiolo, Barbera, and probably quite a few other Italian grapes seem to be more red fruited in pretty much all cases.

I agree in general, more or less. But tou can certainly get some very dark fruits – like black plums – out of some ripe barberas. Giacoma Conterno’s Cascina Francia barbera is very definitely in that category. Some blackberry elements there, too. I’ve always assumed that they pick very ripe, because the acid is lower, or at least less conspicuous, than most barbera.

[Merrill_Lindquist]

@Doug Schulman

@Merrill Lindquist

Chris, to me, I just don’t think you can define “ripeness” at all. What is “ripe?” A friend of mine loves her bananas when they are “ripe.” To her that means the mushy, sweet, turning-to-brown banana that you can smell while it is sitting in a bowl. To me, for my definition/taste, the banana must be firm, not too sweet, and yellow-just-turning-from-green. Peaches? For me, a ripe peach must not offer much resistance to the bite, and must have reached the point where the juice will dribble down your chin. Others like them firm and consider my “ripe” peach over the hill.

So on to grapes. To me, it is very difficult to assign the word “ripeness” across the board. Your definition or mine? And to infer that some degree of “ripeness” may be better or more acceptable in one type of wine than another just doesn’t mean much. But no harm done…you and others are, of course, free to discuss wine in any terms you like. And so am I.

Mike’s OP seems clear that he’s talking about ripeness in a less>more sort of continuum, not as a yes vs. no question. Anyone here can taste Clos du Val Cabernet alongside Altamura Cabernet and identify one as far riper than the other. Of course there’s a lot of area in between, but the higher and lower ends of the spectrum are quite clearly evident. Each person’s sweet spot for Napa Cab might be different, but the spectrum of potential ripeness is mostly objective. So, I agree that everyone’s preference is only their own, but I don’t think that’s relevant to this thread or makes the topic not worth discussing.

And I would agree with you, Doug and others, that it appears the subject is worth discussing. Hey, most people have sensitive “hot spots” that when touched upon, elicit stronger emotions than perhaps some others do.

Hopefully I did not offend Mike or anyone else with my opinion about this subject. It’s interesting…I see many other threads where people rip each other up and down. I offer a strong opinion on a subject on which I have, well, a strong opinion, and then feel like it was somehow the wrong thing to do.

[GregT]

Merrill - It’s not.

[mike_pobega]

No offense taken.

[DougS]

@John Morris

@Doug Schulman

Sangiovese, Nebbiolo, Barbera, and probably quite a few other Italian grapes seem to be more red fruited in pretty much all cases.

I agree in general, more or less. But tou can certainly get some very dark fruits – like black plums – out of some ripe barberas. Giacoma Conterno’s Cascina Francia barbera is very definitely in that category. Some blackberry elements there, too. I’ve always assumed that they pick very ripe, because the acid is lower, or at least less conspicuous, than most barbera.

Yeah, I get some of those notes in Chiarlo La Court as well, but it still comes off as predominantly red fruited to me. It does seem riper than most Barberas I’ve had. Same with Quorum. I’m not familiar with the Cascina Francia.