In Defense Of Restaurant Wine Prices

[Joe_B]

I’ll be honest, I’ve been to a few upscale restaurants where I have ordered water or iced tea and gotten some looks from the wait staff.

[Andrew_Nielsen1]

@Thomas Keim

A good way to keep a great list is to carry 3-5 million dollars worth of inventory, price it out of site so no one purchases the wine, and you have a great list to read while you are ordering a beer.

When will restauranteurs wake up and price their list to sell? They would go through ten times the wines (especially on the high end) and actually turn that damn inventory rather than collect for a museum. See Berns in Tampa Florida to see how it works -

Purchasing a wine for $100 a bottle and pricing it at $200 a bottle brings back enough profit to survive, and offers a real bargain to the wine drinker.

Make your money on the wines by the glass and low end wines - low priced high end wines bring in the heavy hitters who have no problem paying $22 for a side salad.

More restauranteurs I have been speaking (and more likely to be working) with these days are definitely moving in that direction, away from a fixed %GP margin, towards a high GP, diverse By The Glass selection list supplemented by a tightly curated but fixed $ (not%) margin higher end list, where the prices are almost begging you to move up. A wine list for both ends of the market. Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

[jeffmazen]

@Mike Cohen

@Ian Sutton

@Joe B

If you don’t like the price send a message and order water. No seriously!

I have certainly done this before, in a reastaurant with great food, yet who marked current vintage, widely available Sauv blanc at 4-5 time retail. It was a favourite place, but I got so fed up I just stopped going in the end.

I wonder what would happen if you had a conversation with the owner. Our favorite local place in NJ where we are regulars is a BYO thankfully. But if they had a winelist that was egregiously priced, I think I might have a polite conversation with the owner laying out my concerns.

This same place that I’m talking about recently opened a second restaurant. My wife and I were there on opening night. There were aspects that I loved and aspects that I didn’t enjoy. When the two owners came to our table, I told them what I honestly thought. Some of the things that I brought up were addressed within days, some were addressed within months. On the few things that they didn’t change, I’ve had a open dialogue with the owners and have come to understand and appreciate their position.

Ian, FWIW, I totally agree with you and won’t order wine at gouging prices. But it’s a shame that you felt the need to stop going to a place you enjoy. Cheers.

No wine list so they gouge you on the oysters.

[Neil_Gilmour]

Take out! Great food, great company and my own wine cellar!

[Chris_Seiber]

@Gary Ahearn

In Oregon, microbrews are all about the hops–who has the hoppiest. I figure it’s a phase–like high-octane Aussie Shiraz ten years ago–that will pass.

Amen. It’s like a dick-measuring contest. I avoid most craft brews because most of them taste like freshly cut boards from the sawmill.

[Chris_Seiber]

And it’s not just what the % markup is, it’s what kinds of wines they are offering.

For example, Bordeaux is full of good, food-friendly, interesting wines that sell for $15-30. But how often do you see those on the wine list? Even at 2-3X markup, a bottle of 2009 Lanessan, Reignac, La Vieille Cure or Caronne Ste. Gemme would be lovely with your meal.

Or a bottle of Louis Latour Marsannay, Chidaine Vouvray, Tercero Grenache Blanc, etc.

Instead, you get a toxic mixtures of astronomically-priced trophies, off-vintages, no-name producers, wines that are way too young to drink (or, if older, jacked up yet higher), etc.

If I saw 2009 Lanessan on the list for $60, I’d be quite happy, even though that’s 3X retail. So it’s not only the markup, it’s what kinds of wines there are to choose from.

I suspect the reason you don’t see those kinds of options is that (a) they don’t know enough to pick them and (b) they don’t want you to get away with only spending $50-60 for a good bottle of wine, but would rather you had to spend $90+.

[Michael_S_Monie]

The point of this thead is that there is no reason why anyone investing their money in a restaurant should run it to please a wine geek. The restaurant is there to make as much money as possible and what needs to be done is all towards that end. Who are you going to please, a baller spending plenty of money, or geek trying to economize?

[Chris_Seiber]

I agree with you on that. Though I guess it depends on the specific restaurant and its clientele.

[Larry_P]

@Michael S. Monie

The point of this thead is that there is no reason why anyone investing their money in a restaurant should run it to please a wine geek. The restaurant is there to make as much money as possible and what needs to be done is all towards that end. Who are you going to please, a baller spending plenty of money, or geek trying to economize?

The fastest way for the investors to recoup their cash is for the restaurant to maximize profit, period. That won’t happen if astronomical, nonsensical markups cause enough customers to not purchase inventory. Those fed up with restaurant wine markups are not limited to the “geek trying to economize.” What kind of markup is ideal? I don’t think we know, but I don’t see any reason to assume that the current scheme is based in peak market efficiency.

[Jeff_Bloom]

@Neil Gilmour

Take out! Great food, great company and my own wine cellar!

+1

I don’t understand those of you who think ordering beer or particularly iced tea is a reasonable option to what you consider to be excessive mark ups on wine or somehow sends a message. I chafe at lists with 3+ times retail but routinely pay between 2 and 3x (BYO is slowing catching on in VA). Most of those same places mark up beer 4 or 5x retail, more on some of the esoteric labels. Even though some slight labor and power are needed to make iced tea, it’s just tea bags and water (I’m sorry - free refills don’t make it any better a value). And do any of you order a cocktail at these restaurants? Yes, the current “mixologist” trend may add value to certain mixed drinks, but I drink single malt scotch neat. The mark up on that is obscene.

So yes, the mark up on wine bothers me. But since I’m going to drink something, I’m paying a big mark up on anything except tap water (and some places have even started charging for “house filtered” water), so I might as well drink my preferred beverage.

[Ken_Rudman]

@Jeff Bloom

I don’t understand those of you who think ordering beer …

For me, ordering a beer is as an alternative to the wines by the glass, which are priced astronomically above value and are generally not very interesting. A $6-8 pint of good, food-friendly, local beer feels like a much better value than a 4 oz pour of La Crema Pinot Noir for $8.

[Dan_Hammer]

@Joe B

… but $200 for a $65 bottle of wine is going to only go so far.

When people come to my house, rather than tell them they’re drinking a $65 bottle, I tell them they’re drinking a bottle that would set them back $200 in a restaurant.

[Scott_Brunson]

@Dan Hammer

@Joe B

… but $200 for a $65 bottle of wine is going to only go so far.

When people come to my house, rather than tell them they’re drinking a $65 bottle, I tell them they’re drinking a bottle that would set them back $200 in a restaurant.

Dan, I’m definitely “borrowing” that.
Brilliant!

[A_Songeur]

I am practical and would expect restaurants to be practical as well. Trends show me they have stopped to be in many cases.
10 years ago, fine wines were affordable. Restaurants used to multiply the price by 3 and it was a bit frustrating for fine wines amateurs to sponsor non wine drinkers…but, at the end of the day, I was going to restaurants because I wanted to and could afford it.
I may be a snob but with fine food, I want fine wine.
Wine prices have shot up and while a good bottle of wine was as expensive as the food ten years ago, nowadays a good bottle of Burgundy or Bordeaux easily reaches 3, 4 times the price of the food and it still is the same wine. Count north of 200£ for a good Burg 1er cru if you can find it. Because most restaurants keep on multiplying the inflated price by 3, hence have grossly inflated their margin, fin wine drinker heavily sponsor non wine or plonk drinkers.
Result: most people now drink plonk in restaurant. Not me, I go far far less to restaurants (probably 5 tomes less as a guess, so a reduction of 80%) and I resent it but I don’t want to spend 250 £ on a meal of which the food is sold for 50£ (maybe I should ust stop drinking…).
Just facts but I know I am in a minority. A lot of people will just drink plonk with it.
I wished they would have a fixed element in the price.

[Bruce_Leiser_owitz]

@Michael S. Monie

The point of this thead is that there is no reason why anyone investing their money in a restaurant should run it to please a wine geek. The restaurant is there to make as much money as possible and what needs to be done is all towards that end. Who are you going to please, a baller spending plenty of money, or geek trying to economize?

This topic has been covered many, many times. As has already been said in this thread, a restaurant owner/manager is entitled to select the wine list they want to present and price it accordingly to whatever markup philosophy they want to use. It’s then up to the diners–regular folks, wine geeks, and/or ballers–to decide how to respond.

As has also been posted many, many times on this topic–it’s not simply the % markup on the wine, it’s often the lack of choices that make sense in light of the food and what the dishes cost. If an average entree in a given restaurant is $20-$30, why give me a wine list where most wines start at $75-$100 and go up from there? And that’s putting aside that very often, the wines on a lot of restaurant wine lists aren’t that interesting, and they tend to be wines recently released.

There’s the other thread now about how to tip on a $500 wine off the wine list. Let’s be clear; restaurants can and do succeed without ever having to rely on putting bottles on their list that price out at $500. But if a restaurant wants to go to that price level, then it should offer a reasonably compelling reason why diners would want to order that bottle off the list. Otherwise, it’s likely to sit in inventory for a LONG time.

Bruce

[Michael_S_Monie]

@Bruce Leiser_owitz

@Michael S. Monie

The point of this thead is that there is no reason why anyone investing their money in a restaurant should run it to please a wine geek. The restaurant is there to make as much money as possible and what needs to be done is all towards that end. Who are you going to please, a baller spending plenty of money, or geek trying to economize?

This topic has been covered many, many times. As has already been said in this thread, a restaurant owner/manager is entitled to select the wine list they want to present and price it accordingly to whatever markup philosophy they want to use. It’s then up to the diners–regular folks, wine geeks, and/or ballers–to decide how to respond.

As has also been posted many, many times on this topic–it’s not simply the % markup on the wine, it’s often the lack of choices that make sense in light of the food and what the dishes cost. If an average entree in a given restaurant is $20-$30, why give me a wine list where most wines start at $75-$100 and go up from there? And that’s putting aside that very often, the wines on a lot of restaurant wine lists aren’t that interesting, and they tend to be wines recently released.

There’s the other thread now about how to tip on a $500 wine off the wine list. Let’s be clear; restaurants can and do succeed without ever having to rely on putting bottles on their list that price out at $500. But if a restaurant wants to go to that price level, then it should offer a reasonably compelling reason why diners would want to order that bottle off the list. Otherwise, it’s likely to sit in inventory for a LONG time.

Bruce

Your expressed concerns are those of a wine geek dining at a restaurant.

[Rick_Smith]

@Dan Hammer

@Joe B

… but $200 for a $65 bottle of wine is going to only go so far.

When people come to my house, rather than tell them they’re drinking a $65 bottle, I tell them they’re drinking a bottle that would set them back 20,000 points in a restaurant.

Fify

[Bruce_Leiser_owitz]

@Michael S. Monie

Your expressed concerns are those of a wine geek dining at a restaurant.

It appears that you have already made up your mind as to what the “right” answer is re: restaurant wine pricing, and anyone offering a different opinion will be dismissed with a “wine geek” label. It doesn’t appear there is any point in continuing the discussion…

Bruce

[Tom_Moore]

Went to a new wine bar/restaurant in Santa Ana Art District last night - Vineyard Roz that my wife wanted to try. 7:30 and we were the second table taken and nobody else came while we dined. Interesting wines by the glass and bottle but the prices! Glasses ranged from $15 - $24 for pretty basic stuff. When I go to a wine bar I want to try something new/different but at these prices I didn’t want to try anything. Other table was drinking iced tea. We ended up getting a decent bottle of chablis for $44 and the food ended up being very good if not outstanding. Owner was the only one working and was very forthcoming on opening her first bar/restaurant. She told us she has a sommelier/consultant and he did make some good selections but in my opinion needed some less expensive wines by the glass to get people in the doors.
I am tempted to send her an email because I hate to see a dream like this not make it. Maybe just a white and a red “tap” wine just to get the ball rolling. Wine at these prices make it seem snobby - have glasses for $5 - $10 and move up from there. Why can’t we do what the Spaniards do with their tapas bars? 2 - 4 euros for a small glass of rojo, blanco or sherry to go with the small plates. I see a job opportunity here, put together smart by the glass lists that make a profit for the restaurant and get people out drinking wine with dinner.
Funny thing happened when we paid the bill - 50% off our bottle - special they run on Wednesdays! Wish I would have known that, would have picked out a nicer bottle! So $22 for a bottle that retails for $20.

[Michael_S_Monie]

@Bruce Leiser_owitz

@Michael S. Monie

Your expressed concerns are those of a wine geek dining at a restaurant.

It appears that you have already made up your mind as to what the “right” answer is re: restaurant wine pricing, and anyone offering a different opinion will be dismissed with a “wine geek” label. It doesn’t appear there is any point in continuing the discussion…

Bruce

The only “right” answer that I have is that a restaurateur who has skin in the game has Carte Blanche freedom to compose and sell their wine any way they wish regardless of what you and I think. If you think you have a viable business model for wine service, perhaps you should open a restaurant or become a consultant.