Germany 2015 really that great

[Russell_Faulkner]

Excluding Muller, the spread of pricing is tighter in white German wines than more or less any other area.

I’m not really financially incentivised to try cheaper producers.

[David_Bu3ker]

Keller is not exactly cheap either.

Weil is getting up there as well.

It also seems to be common for GG bottlings from many producers to be $70 or $80 in the US, making them less price competitive with many Austrian Rieslings that can be found for $40-$60, and Trimbach CFE around $50-$60.

[Russell_Faulkner]

True. But like normal I wasn’t really thinking of the dry wines.

[Daniel_McIntosh]

When are these supposed to hit the shelves here?

[Russell_Faulkner]

The big London tasting is tomorrow. Sorry to miss it, though I’m not convinced one gets a great steer now, much better come late September.

Anyway my order is in. I tried to keep it small. Honest I tried.

[John_Morris]

@Ross Massey

@Jay Miller

Years ago they seemed very sulphury (sponti-y?) young but aged gloriously. Lately they’ve been much more enjoyable on release but like any other good wine shut down after a period of time and are not that enjoyable until they emerge on the other side.

So like so many other wines my philosophy is to drink them young or drink them old but not in between. And the Kabinetts also age beautifully.

I don’t think it’s sulfur. But that question is academic and will probably be argued for as long as people are talking about wine!

What’s the debate? Traditionally they dosed with sulfur to halt the fermentation in sweet wines.

[David_Bu3ker]

So I missed the Terry Theise tasting yesterday, as I am on a business trip. My wife went, and thought the wines were good, not great, and she is a very perceptive taster.

[dbailey]

@Russell Faulkner

The big London tasting is tomorrow. Sorry to miss it, though I’m not convinced one gets a great steer now, much better come late September.

Anyway my order is in. I tried to keep it small. Honest I tried.

Certainly true last year when the lovely urine on slate combo in June had almost completely disappeared by September!

[Russell_Faulkner]

True every year. But tasting just bottled wines isn’t half as useful as knowing the producers wines across multiple vintages.

[Loren_Sonkin]

@Martin Zwick

And as you are all talking about JJ Prüm, here is a 2015 Wehlener Sonnenuhr from Max Ferd. Richter you can buy right now for a song. In contrast you have to wait a few months before you see 2015 JJ Prüm.

2015 Max Ferd. Richter "Wehlener Sonnenuhr" - contender for Kabinett of the Year - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers

Doesn’t seem to be available in the US yet.

[Matcohen]

@D@vid Bu3ker

Keller is not exactly cheap either.

Weil is getting up there as well.

It also seems to be common for bottlings from many producers to be $70 or $80 in the US, making them less price competitive with many Austrian Rieslings that can be found for $40-$60, and Trimbach CFE around $50-$60.

The top German dry wines are generally labelled Grosses Gewachs (basically the German version of Grand Cru “GG”).

Top German dry wines (outside of Keller G-Max which is in the multi hundreds) are mostly in the $70-$80 range through standard 3 tier distribution. You can get them in the $60s from retailers who buy gray market or in the high $40s from retailers who buy direct.

There are also some excellent GGs in the $50s through 3 tier ($35ish direct).

I’d agree with you that say Knoll Smaragd, for example, is an excellent value in the $40s.
Nikolaihof Steiner Hund is in the $65-$80 range, similar to top GGs. Justified imho, it’s very good

[Matcohen]

@D@vid Bu3ker

@Jeff Rosenberg

It is interesting that most discussion about German Riesling centers on JJ Prum. Are their products so superior that one should look no further?

Prum is outstanding and pretty easy to get. But there are other producers that are equal (and to many people superior). Some (e.g. Egon Muller) are amazing, but really expensive, and tougher to acquire.

Prum makes excellent, ageworthy Mosel sweet wines and is generally considered to be one of the top 4-5 producers of sweet wines in the Mosel. They do not make dry wines (and only rarely make off dry wines).

The Nahe is another region quite famous for sweet wines (Donnhoff and others).

German wine consumption has shifted dramatically to dry wines in recent years. The Rheinhessen (Keller and others) is the most popular region but the Nahe and Pfalz are also very popular for dry wines.

[Matcohen]

@D@vid Bu3ker

We have had a bunch of once in a lifetime vintages. I am buying, but not as if it’s my only chance.

It’s a very good vintage for sure. Once in a lifetime might be a bit much with lifespans where they are these days.

[Howard_Cooper]

@Jürgen Steinke

Many people are focusing on the well known names. But truth is that dozens of talented winemakers are producing superb wines in Germany these days. But ok - this is true for almost any wine growing country. If you are interested in saving money I suggest to be open minded and tasting as much wines of a certain area as possible. It won´t take long to find positive surprises.

Honestly, unless you are looking for GG wines (which tend to be very expensive in the US), I don’t see that much difference in prices between most more famous German wine producers and less famous ones. Maybe Egon Mueller, Keller and one or two others. But generally superstar producers (at least to me) like Prum, von Schubert, Selbach, Zilliken and Rheinhold Haart are priced at a relatively small premium over other German wine producers. In most cases, unlike in the rest of the wine world, why not go for the big boys?

[Howard_Cooper]

@Matcohen

The [most overpriced] German dry wines are generally labelled Grosses Gewachs (basically the German version of Grand Cru “GG”).

Fixed it.

[Jay_Miller]

@Howard Cooper

@Matcohen

The [most overpriced] German dry wines are generally labelled Grosses Gewachs (basically the German version of Grand Cru “GG”).

Fixed it.

Well played.

[John_Morris]

@Howard Cooper

@Matcohen

The [most overpriced] German dry wines are generally labelled Grosses Gewachs (basically the German version of Grand Cru “GG”).

Fixed it.

[David_K2]

The prices of the GGs do give me pause and have prevented a further exploration on my part beyond dipping the toes in. So just why are the prices so much higher than the residually-sweet wines? Is it yields? Production costs? Or just the fact that they can get it?

[Kirk.Grant]

@Peter Kleban

I have some Prüm '06 Graacher Auslese Goldkapsel sleeping downstairs. Any predictions on when that might mature?

I’m drinking a JJP WS 01 GK on the 26th with my birthday lunch. I’ll say it’s always been in a great spot ever since I pulled the first cork…but I also have a '76 GK that’s still resting safely in the cellar. It all depends on what you want.

[Kirk.Grant]

@David_K

The prices of the GGs do give me pause and have prevented a further exploration on my part beyond dipping the toes in. So just why are the prices so much higher than the residually-sweet wines? Is it yields? Production costs? Or just the fact that they can get it?

Honestly it’s the style that most of the German market consumes. So they can sell it all easily at home…that’s what’s driving the prices up in my thoughts. Plus, the world seems to finally see just how amazing they can be.