Drinking Windows, are they a Crock?

[Clint_S_Q_U_I_E_R]

@GregT

@Michael Martin

There are two types of folks who predict drinking windows: those who don’t know and those who don’t know they don’t know.

That’s about it.

To summarize:

1. Nobody can predict the future. If they could, they should buy stocks, make billions, and buy all their wine when it’s ready to drink.
   Sure you can. You just can’t predict the future 100% of the time.
2. Everyone has different preferences as to when they think a wine is at peak.
   Maybe I’m in the minority, but I don’t view someone’s end date on their “drinking window” as anything but when the wine is dead.
3. Storage matters and everyone’s storage is different.
   Which is one reason why CT drinking windows generally drive me nuts. You have no idea if the guy declaring a wine as past maturity has stored it in his attic. Sometimes you just have to know what you don’t know and avoid posting any guesses to drinking dates. Because that’s all they are, blind guesses without proper experience.
4. Some critics and wineries have said that they intentionally estimate very conservatively to account for 1 and 2 and 3, even though they’re sure the wines could improve for much longer, given proper conditions.
   I like that approach. I’d rather drink a wine too early than too late. Have we all drank something and wished we had saved it? Of course - but worst case scenario is needing to buy another. I’ll take that all day over staring at a dead wine’s 11 other siblings in my cellar. You can’t do anything but pour them down the drain - certainly can’t sell them in good conscience.
5. Some critics announce insane drinking windows to get attention. Like “100 points and good for 100 years”.
   I disagree. When I see that, it’s generally on wines that have lasted that long in the past. A great port or sauternes can easily last 100 years. With proper storage, why can’t '01 Y’quem or '11 Dow last for a century? That claim doesn’t bother me until they start laying it on $15 pinot grigio.

[TomHill]

@Clint S Q U I E R

@TomHill

@Clint S Q U I E R

I’ll add my 2 cents again - didn’t know I was so passionate about drinking windows!

I only care about when a wine dies. If you’re omniscient, tell me when the vast majority of wine drinkers won’t like it anymore. Don’t care about primary/secondary characteristics, that’s all personal preference. Tell me when it’s vinegar. I can live with a drinkable bottle of wine that’s perhaps older than my personal preference, I just don’t want bottles to live and die in my cellar and be useless to anyone.

Hmmmmmm…over the last yr, I’ve drunk dozens & dozens of old btls. Many of them have been pretty dead & gone.
Bitter/astringent/dryed-out tannins. No fruit. Sometimes a bit aldehydic. Some not much pleasure.
But I don’t recall a one of them being vinegar.
Tom

Vinegar was a euphemism for bitter/astringent/dryed-out tannins. No fruit. Sometimes a bit aldehydic. Some not much pleasure. I did not mean it would literally turn into vinegar.

Fair enough, Clint. That’s sorta what I expected you meant. Under the reductive conditions of a closed btl, I don’t think a wine can
turn to vinegar (AceticAcid/EthylAcetate) unless it went into the btl in that state.
I actually like the aroma/taste of a good vinegar quite a lot. But just not when I sit down to have a glass of wine.
Tom

[lleichtman]

@Clint S Q U I E R

@TomHill

@Clint S Q U I E R

I’ll add my 2 cents again - didn’t know I was so passionate about drinking windows!

I only care about when a wine dies. If you’re omniscient, tell me when the vast majority of wine drinkers won’t like it anymore. Don’t care about primary/secondary characteristics, that’s all personal preference. Tell me when it’s vinegar. I can live with a drinkable bottle of wine that’s perhaps older than my personal preference, I just don’t want bottles to live and die in my cellar and be useless to anyone.

Hmmmmmm…over the last yr, I’ve drunk dozens & dozens of old btls. Many of them have been pretty dead & gone.
Bitter/astringent/dryed-out tannins. No fruit. Sometimes a bit aldehydic. Some not much pleasure.
But I don’t recall a one of them being vinegar.
Tom

Vinegar was a euphemism for bitter/astringent/dryed-out tannins. No fruit. Sometimes a bit aldehydic. Some not much pleasure. I did not mean it would literally turn into vinegar.

I have to go with you on this one. I have had some very old Bordeaux wines that were way tired nothing but some tannins and ash tray with no discernible fruit or aromas. They may not be vinegar, and yes, I know how to make vinegar as I have a vinegar crock for wines that aren’t salvageable, but these wines are not pleasant to drink and isn’t that the whole point? It isn’t a contest to see how long you can hold something unless it is very old Madeira. Good for someone who finds a very old bottle that is still good. My experience has been less than sanguine on this issue. I have been given bottles from friends who know nothing about wine and kept it over their fridge for 10 years. Not much there.

[dougwilder]

As someone who includes drinking windows in my tasting notes, I agree they are approximations and I think for the most part anyone who writes one should fail on the conservative side. Seldom will I extrapolate a window more than 10 years (2015 - 2025) just for that reason. I am happy to be proved wrong. Last year I tasted the vertical of Dyer Vineyards Cabernet Sauvignon from Diamond Mountain and realized the original windows for the earliest vintages needed to be thrown out and re-evaluated based on the evolution that had transpired over time. They had another 8 - 10 years, easy.

[David_Bu3ker]

The wine will always have the last word.

[Al_Osterheld]

Leaky corks (and corks are highly variable as far as the seal and temperature changes exacerbate the problem) can let the wine make a little vinegar which then is metabolized to ethyl acetate with more oxygen. The latter is very volatile and aromatic, so it doesn’t take much to affect the nose.

-Al

[andrew_messenger]

From Tom…Hmmmmmm…over the last yr, I’ve drunk dozens & dozens of old btls. Many of them have been pretty dead & gone.
Bitter/astringent/dryed-out tannins. No fruit. Sometimes a bit aldehydic. Some not much pleasure.
But I don’t recall a one of them being vinegar.
Tom[/quote]
Are most of your dead bottles American or French. White or red? I’ve had the best luck and surprises with red european wines.

[TomHill]

@andrew messenger

From Tom…Hmmmmmm…over the last yr, I’ve drunk dozens & dozens of old btls. Many of them have been pretty dead & gone.
Bitter/astringent/dryed-out tannins. No fruit. Sometimes a bit aldehydic. Some not much pleasure.
But I don’t recall a one of them being vinegar.
Tom

@Andrew

Are most of your dead bottles American or French. White or red? I’ve had the best luck and surprises with red european wines.

They pretty much cover the whole gamut, Andrew. Mostly reds, but a lotta whites. European & Calif. Been working on a case
of '88 JJPrums that have, across the board, been magnificant. I’ll hit an old RedRhone, a Calif Syrah every so often
that are terrific. And a lot (red) that are pretty tired & don’t offer much pleasure.
Tom

[Gary_York]

Some science and a lot of art. Really impossible to know unless you have followed the wine from birth to your glass. I have wines that should be dead turn out impossibly young. And wines that are falling apart at age four. And everything in between. You never really know what is under the cork.

[John_Fagan]

I trust my own drinking windows which I post in CT. I do tend to like my wines older than many people and all of the wine I own was bought on release and stored in ideal conditions. If I posted an TN a few years ago and said drink “2014-2020”, I will taste another bottle soon and perhaps adjust my drinking window. Not surprisingly, for my own tastes, I think I do a great job!