Cutting Pinot with Syrah in CA: Does it happen?

[Bob_Wood]

What should we have done the year I watched one of our members mistakenly dump one bin of pinot noir into the hopper with the pinot gris?

[Scott_Manlin]

@Bob Wood

What should we have done the year I watched one of our members mistakenly dump one bin of pinot noir into the hopper with the pinot gris?

That is one way to make Pinot rose…

[Bob_Wood]

@Scott Manlin

@Bob Wood

What should we have done the year I watched one of our members mistakenly dump one bin of pinot noir into the hopper with the pinot gris?

That is one way to make Pinot rose…

I’ve actually seen pinot gris rose. Tasted it, even. If you’ve ever seen ripe gris you’d know how much color is in the skins, but this one surprised be because it was so pink. A lot of times gris is kinda brown-looking.

[Rick_Gregory]

@larry schaffer

@MitchTallan

Big yawn.
The only reason I am posting is to say this; IMHO it’s high time California revisited it’s labeling laws away from the 75% rule to 100%. Any deviation from 100% should be disclosed on the label. Topping of barrels should be restricted to the same variety from the same vintage. Obviously, wineries could cheat regardless of the rules, but it would give pause to most wineries/winemakers. The consumer deserves the information in return for their hard earned dollar.

Mitch,

Interesting take. How would you go about changing international law so that everyone else would adhere to the same standards? I think from a consumer standpoint, this would be very important.

Why would we need to? The 75% standard isn’t uniform internationally.

That said, there are so many other things that wineries and winemakers do NOT need to disclose on labels - acid/water additions, spinning cone use, velcorin or filtration, other additions - that can have as big if not bigger effects on the finished wines than just the varieties that are blended in.

Cheers.

Slippery slope of course, but the topic is varietal character and what the customer believes they’re buying. As I understand it, I could add 20% Syrah to my Pinot and call it Pinot. I doubt like hell anyone would DO this, but why have a standard that’s so lax?

Mitch - your proposal doesn’t address the issue, really. If I can call something Pinot but add other things… when do I forfeit the right to call it Pinot Noir? When the non-PN component is 5%? 1%? 25%?

[Scott_Manlin]

@Bob Wood

@Scott Manlin

@Bob Wood

What should we have done the year I watched one of our members mistakenly dump one bin of pinot noir into the hopper with the pinot gris?

That is one way to make Pinot rose…

I’ve actually seen pinot gris rose. Tasted it, even. If you’ve ever seen ripe gris you’d know how much color is in the skins, but this one surprised be because it was so pink. A lot of times gris is kinda brown-looking.

Funny you should mention that… I did see some this year… more like late harvest pinot gris… some pretty ugly fruit and a gentle crush yielded some sweet, lightly pink juice… with a bit more maceration, I am sure it would take on a more rose like color

[Jim_Swayze]

Though slightly amateurish and misleading, here is an on topic article from Sunset magazine:

Is Your Favorite Pinot Noir a Fake?

[john_holdredge]

@Scott Manlin

@Bob Wood

@Scott Manlin

That is one way to make Pinot rose…

I’ve actually seen pinot gris rose. Tasted it, even. If you’ve ever seen ripe gris you’d know how much color is in the skins, but this one surprised be because it was so pink. A lot of times gris is kinda brown-looking.

Funny you should mention that… I did see some this year… more like late harvest pinot gris… some pretty ugly fruit and a gentle crush yielded some sweet, lightly pink juice… with a bit more maceration, I am sure it would take on a more rose like color

Actually you can get pinking in Pinot Gris even with whole cluster pressing. There are a couple products available to stabilize juice to lessen that occurence.

[H_Wallace_Jr]

@Bob Wood

[I’ve actually seen pinot gris rose. Tasted it, even. If you’ve ever seen ripe gris you’d know how much color is in the skins, but this one surprised be because it was so pink. A lot of times gris is kinda brown-looking.

The one in the middle is our 100% whole cluster fermented Pinot Gris- Picked 9/1 at about 20 brix (11.7% alc). It is a little less vibrant in person, but still wild looking.

[John_Morris]

@Rick Gregory

Mitch - your proposal doesn’t address the issue, really. If I can call something Pinot but add other things… when do I forfeit the right to call it Pinot Noir? When the non-PN component is 5%? 1%? 25%?

As I understand it, he’d keep the 75% requirement for something to be labeled as a varietal but would require that any wine with less than 100% disclose somewhere on the label what else was in the mix. So you could say “Pinot Noir” on the front, but on the back say “80% Pinot Noir, 20% Ruby Cabernet.”

[Rob_MacKay]

@H Wallace Jr

@Bob Wood

[I’ve actually seen pinot gris rose. Tasted it, even. If you’ve ever seen ripe gris you’d know how much color is in the skins, but this one surprised be because it was so pink. A lot of times gris is kinda brown-looking.

The one in the middle is our 100% whole cluster fermented Pinot Gris- Picked 9/1 at about 20 brix (11.7% alc). It is a little less vibrant in person, but still wild looking.

Who peed in the glass on the right?

[Robert.Fleming]

@dave kammerer

One of the Au Bon Climat bottlings lists the addition of another varietal on the front label but the more expensive bottlings do not.

Grape variety, not varietal.

[MitchTallan]

@John Morris

@Rick Gregory

Mitch - your proposal doesn’t address the issue, really. If I can call something Pinot but add other things… when do I forfeit the right to call it Pinot Noir? When the non-PN component is 5%? 1%? 25%?

As I understand it, he’d keep the 75% requirement for something to be labeled as a varietal but would require that any wine with less than 100% disclose somewhere on the label what else was in the mix. So you could say “Pinot Noir” on the front, but on the back say “80% Pinot Noir, 20% Ruby Cabernet.”

Correct. Thanks.

[Rob_MacKay]

@John Morris

So you could say “Pinot Noir” on the front, but on the back say “80% Pinot Noir, 20% Ruby Port”

Corrected for California…

[Rick_Gregory]

@MitchTallan

@John Morris

@Rick Gregory

Mitch - your proposal doesn’t address the issue, really. If I can call something Pinot but add other things… when do I forfeit the right to call it Pinot Noir? When the non-PN component is 5%? 1%? 25%?

As I understand it, he’d keep the 75% requirement for something to be labeled as a varietal but would require that any wine with less than 100% disclose somewhere on the label what else was in the mix. So you could say “Pinot Noir” on the front, but on the back say “80% Pinot Noir, 20% Ruby Cabernet.”

Correct. Thanks.

Eh. That’s window dressing to me. I’d rather move the varietal content up (to about 90%) and disclose. Here’s the thing - forgetting the esoterica of labeling laws etc., let’s ask what the mainstream wine buyer thinks that they’re getting when they buy a bottle of varietally labeled wine. I’d bet most of them would expect that the wine is overwhelmingly that variety. I don’t think many would be shocked to hear that 5-10% of their Syrah was blended with Grenache or Zin with Carignane, but I do think that a lot would be surprised to hear that the Cabernet Sauvignon could be 25% something else.

Where does that leave people who want to blend? Use fantasy names. Ridge does this quite successfully with Lytton Springs, Geyserville, etc.

[H_Wallace_Jr]

@Rob MacKay

Who peed in the glass on the right?

See that cat? That’s how we get both smell and color in our SB… Might have to disclose that on the label now… drat!

[Rick_Gregory]

@H Wallace Jr

@Rob MacKay

Who peed in the glass on the right?

See that cat? That’s how we get both smell and color in our SB… Might have to disclose that on the label now… drat!

Only if it’s more than 5%

[Cris_Whetstone]

@Rick Gregory

Where does that leave people who want to blend? Use fantasy names. Ridge does this quite successfully with Lytton Springs, Geyserville, etc.

I assume you mean blend and not fantasy names when calling out the Ridge bottlings?

[H_Wallace_Jr]

@Rick Gregory

@H Wallace Jr

@Rob MacKay

Who peed in the glass on the right?

See that cat? That’s how we get both smell and color in our SB… Might have to disclose that on the label now… drat!

Only if it’s more than 5%

Way more. You should see Stanko (the cat) drink…

[Rick_Gregory]

@Cris Whetstone

@Rick Gregory

Where does that leave people who want to blend? Use fantasy names. Ridge does this quite successfully with Lytton Springs, Geyserville, etc.

I assume you mean blend and not fantasy names when calling out the Ridge bottlings?

Both, kind of, though you’re right of course that the vineyard names aren’t fantasy names. But they’ve been very successful in branding Geyserville as a wine even though it’s not legally Zin. People know it’s a Zin dominant blend and like it for what it is. They embrace the disclosure Mitch wants not as a legalistic point but as something they’re proud of - it’s on the FRONT label. People can see it’s mostly Zin, they get across that it’s a blend and they succeed in selling it.

They’re really a model on how to do this. The wine page (http://www.ridgewine.com/wines/Geyserville_Wine.tml) gives a very clear summary of what’s in the wine, a bit about the growing season, the harvest stats and a quick TN from the winemaker. The bottle clearly and cleanly tells the buyer what the wine is made from. When people complain about how hard all of this is, I point to Ridge. They do it. So can anyone else who wants to.

[H_Wallace_Jr]

@Rick Gregory

The wine page (http://www.ridgewine.com/wines/Geyserville_Wine.tml) gives a very clear summary of what’s in the wine, a bit about the growing season, the harvest stats and a quick TN from the winemaker.

Love it.