Chardonnay Noir

[Mel_Knox]

John,
Dave Ramey was the winemaker there then.

Jason,
I met Brad only once so i cannot say I had any deep talk with him about anything.

Freemark Abbey, where Brad consulted alongside two future Acacians, had a regime for chardonnay
that included 1/ss fermentation 2/ rotation through French oak bbls 3/lots of SO2 …The wine was incredibly successful. I think what was important is that Brad thought the whole thing through as a system. Acacia was an evolution of Brad’s thinking that included actual barrel fermentation, a big change at the time.

Determining the cause of premox is not easy because everyone does things differently and it is a difficult topic to bring up with people. I remember a winemaker there telling me that because he was bio dynamic he could get by with 15 pts free at bottling. Certainly the new presses eliminated a lot of solids that used to be there. About five or six years ago i asked various winemakers there if they let the juice brown and they all said yes. So I am inclined to say this is not the issue but who knows?? If you did not let the juice brown but did not keep sulfiting the wine, clearly disaster would be in the cards.

I think you are right about the new presses. You change one thing in a system and everything else has to be considered.

Say hi to Linda and McNeill and a big wet one for Jean for me.

[Joe_Davis]

@Mel Knox

Black Chardonnay Comes From Re-Discovered Winemaking Magic | SevenFifty Daily

Did anybody else see this article?? I found it when I saw the article on wine tasting groups in LA. It struck me as something that should have appeared in the National Vinquirer.


The author refers to a process that includes a ‘little black magic’…Winemakers let chardonnay juice turn brown. What we tried to prevent from turning brown in the '70s precipitates out of the wine and less SO2 is thus required. The first I heard of this technique was around 1982, when Dave Ramey and Zelma Long explained it to me. A seminar held by Seitz–the filter people, not sorcerers–inspired their new approach to chardonnay making. Many other wineries have been using this approach since then. Some wineries, like Au Bon Climat, had already been making chardonnay this way, but it was really Ramey and Long who spread the gospel.

Is understanding this phenomenon key to solving the riddle of premox?? I don’t think so. I remember around 1985 Ramey explaining this to a winemaker from Meursault, who responded. Hmm I always wondered why the juice turned the color of tea and then it cleared up. Personally I agree with Dubourdieu and Lavigne about the important of glutathione in the ageing (or lack of) process.

Of course, the key paragraph begins ‘But brown chardonnay, while interesting…’ doesn’t help sell a story?? Not to mention the violence done to the grapes…Well, if it bleeds, it leads,…

This was first suggested to me in 1984 by Dick Graff when I asked him about how Chalone processed their Chardonnay. Dick replied “We step on it till its black and completely saturated with oxygen.”

[Jason_Jardine]

@Mel Knox

John,
Dave Ramey was the winemaker there then.

Jason,
I met Brad only once so i cannot say I had any deep talk with him about anything.

Freemark Abbey, where Brad consulted alongside two future Acacians, had a regime for chardonnay
that included 1/ss fermentation 2/ rotation through French oak bbls 3/lots of SO2 …The wine was incredibly successful. I think what was important is that Brad thought the whole thing through as a system. Acacia was an evolution of Brad’s thinking that included actual barrel fermentation, a big change at the time.

Determining the cause of premox is not easy because everyone does things differently and it is a difficult topic to bring up with people. I remember a winemaker there telling me that because he was bio dynamic he could get by with 15 pts free at bottling. Certainly the new presses eliminated a lot of solids that used to be there. About five or six years ago i asked various winemakers there if they let the juice brown and they all said yes. So I am inclined to say this is not the issue but who knows?? If you did not let the juice brown but did not keep sulfiting the wine, clearly disaster would be in the cards.

I think you are right about the new presses. You change one thing in a system and everything else has to be considered.

Say hi to Linda and McNeill and a big wet one for Jean for me.

Will do Mel! Thanks for the history. We have all the original winemaking records here dating back to 1957 so it’s been very enlightening for me to read and see how well these wines have passed the test of time. Yes, S02 has always been used at generous levels… Love that stuff!

[Jason_Jardine]

@Joe Davis

@Mel Knox

Black Chardonnay Comes From Re-Discovered Winemaking Magic | SevenFifty Daily

Did anybody else see this article?? I found it when I saw the article on wine tasting groups in LA. It struck me as something that should have appeared in the National Vinquirer.


The author refers to a process that includes a ‘little black magic’…Winemakers let chardonnay juice turn brown. What we tried to prevent from turning brown in the '70s precipitates out of the wine and less SO2 is thus required. The first I heard of this technique was around 1982, when Dave Ramey and Zelma Long explained it to me. A seminar held by Seitz–the filter people, not sorcerers–inspired their new approach to chardonnay making. Many other wineries have been using this approach since then. Some wineries, like Au Bon Climat, had already been making chardonnay this way, but it was really Ramey and Long who spread the gospel.

Is understanding this phenomenon key to solving the riddle of premox?? I don’t think so. I remember around 1985 Ramey explaining this to a winemaker from Meursault, who responded. Hmm I always wondered why the juice turned the color of tea and then it cleared up. Personally I agree with Dubourdieu and Lavigne about the important of glutathione in the ageing (or lack of) process.

Of course, the key paragraph begins ‘But brown chardonnay, while interesting…’ doesn’t help sell a story?? Not to mention the violence done to the grapes…Well, if it bleeds, it leads,…

This was first suggested to me in 1984 by Dick Graff when I asked him about how Chalone processed their Chardonnay. Dick replied “We step on it till its black and completely saturated with oxygen.”

That’s awesome! Hope you are well Joe!

[John_Osburn]

@Jason Jardine

@Mel Knox

Black Chardonnay Comes From Re-Discovered Winemaking Magic | SevenFifty Daily

Did anybody else see this article?? I found it when I saw the article on wine tasting groups in LA. It struck me as something that should have appeared in the National Vinquirer.


The author refers to a process that includes a ‘little black magic’…Winemakers let chardonnay juice turn brown. What we tried to prevent from turning brown in the '70s precipitates out of the wine and less SO2 is thus required. The first I heard of this technique was around 1982, when Dave Ramey and Zelma Long explained it to me. A seminar held by Seitz–the filter people, not sorcerers–inspired their new approach to chardonnay making. Many other wineries have been using this approach since then. Some wineries, like Au Bon Climat, had already been making chardonnay this way, but it was really Ramey and Long who spread the gospel.

Is understanding this phenomenon key to solving the riddle of premox?? I don’t think so. I remember around 1985 Ramey explaining this to a winemaker from Meursault, who responded. Hmm I always wondered why the juice turned the color of tea and then it cleared up. Personally I agree with Dubourdieu and Lavigne about the important of glutathione in the ageing (or lack of) process.

Of course, the key paragraph begins ‘But brown chardonnay, while interesting…’ doesn’t help sell a story?? Not to mention the violence done to the grapes…Well, if it bleeds, it leads,…

Hey Mel,

This has been the practice at Hanzell since 1956. 1.5-2 days of juice oxidation prior to the addition of SO2. I’m totally sold on the process…

Hope all is well with you!
Jason

Might this practice contribute to this experience - one of the few bottles of older Hanzell chardonnay I have tasted (from the late 1980s, tasted about 10 years ago) initially poured quite oxidized-looking, but after 30-60 minutes of air it completely brightened up and was absolutely spectacular?

[Anton_D]

Fascinating article, I look forward to this coming wave of chardonnoirs!

[Mel_Knox]

John, I will let Jason answer your question. I have never had this experience.

Joe, I have a theory about winemaking practices:
1/there are the Columbuses…I found America/barrel fermentation/skin contact/juice browning and I will tell everyone at Wines and Vines/Asev/ etc and we will spread the word

2/the Basques…yes we discovered a great fishing ground/barrel fermentation etc and we are keeping it to ourselves…a winemaker once told me he had decided to put the juice into the barrel…no barrel washing, soaking or any other prep…and this made a great difference, but keep it a secret…as tho 100 people in Burgundy had never done this…

[Jason_Jardine]

@John Osburn

@Jason Jardine

@Mel Knox

Black Chardonnay Comes From Re-Discovered Winemaking Magic | SevenFifty Daily

Did anybody else see this article?? I found it when I saw the article on wine tasting groups in LA. It struck me as something that should have appeared in the National Vinquirer.


The author refers to a process that includes a ‘little black magic’…Winemakers let chardonnay juice turn brown. What we tried to prevent from turning brown in the '70s precipitates out of the wine and less SO2 is thus required. The first I heard of this technique was around 1982, when Dave Ramey and Zelma Long explained it to me. A seminar held by Seitz–the filter people, not sorcerers–inspired their new approach to chardonnay making. Many other wineries have been using this approach since then. Some wineries, like Au Bon Climat, had already been making chardonnay this way, but it was really Ramey and Long who spread the gospel.

Is understanding this phenomenon key to solving the riddle of premox?? I don’t think so. I remember around 1985 Ramey explaining this to a winemaker from Meursault, who responded. Hmm I always wondered why the juice turned the color of tea and then it cleared up. Personally I agree with Dubourdieu and Lavigne about the important of glutathione in the ageing (or lack of) process.

Of course, the key paragraph begins ‘But brown chardonnay, while interesting…’ doesn’t help sell a story?? Not to mention the violence done to the grapes…Well, if it bleeds, it leads,…

Hey Mel,

This has been the practice at Hanzell since 1956. 1.5-2 days of juice oxidation prior to the addition of SO2. I’m totally sold on the process…

Hope all is well with you!
Jason

Might this practice contribute to this experience - one of the few bottles of older Hanzell chardonnay I have tasted (from the late 1980s, tasted about 10 years ago) initially poured quite oxidized-looking, but after 30-60 minutes of air it completely brightened up and was absolutely spectacular?

Hi John,

I have had this same experience on several occasions with wines from the 80’s. '81-'88 particularly. Can’t be too quick to give up! Hard to know why because I haven’t determined any significant change in the process from that era. Although, we planted de Brye vineyard in 1976 which would have made up a significant % of the blend in the '80’s. Maybe it was something with the young vine fruit or that section of the vineyard. The wines from the '70’s are still brilliant in color today and haven’t noticed it in any wines from the '90’s/'00’s. Another interesting Hanzell aging phenomenon is that the Pinot darkens with age rather than the color bricking and fading. Recently had a 1958 & 1959 that was shockingly dark and young. It seems to start at around 5-7 years and deepens from there.

[Eric_Lundblad]

I think I’ve posted about this on another thread…but repeating a good story never hurt anyone. Certainly my Dad firmly believed that

About 12 years ago or so, someone brought a 1979 Kistler Chardonnay (from winery lake vineyard, a popular vineyard back then) to a very large ‘old Ca’ offline. Heck, I didn’t know Kistler made wines back then (it was their first vintage). The wine was dead and darkish when first opened, so got ignored. I tried it an hour later and it had transformed it self into an excellent wine (an excellent wine…not an excellent wine considering). Add this to the list of surprising chard stories.

[Mel_Knox]

Now that we have established that letting the juice brown is not new or rare, let me ask another questio

What about ‘smashing the grapes vigorously’?? I’ve heard of crushing the grapes and running them through rollers etc…but smashing them vigorously?? Is this just poetic license??

Interesting is Eric’s comment about Winery lake being a popular vineyard back in the 70s and 80s…nobody talks about it any more, tho I did go to a memorial service at the di Rosa reserve recently…Rene di Rosa created the vineyard and sold it to Sterling sometime in the 80s…

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

@Mel Knox

Blake,

I think Jim has always allowed the juice to brown. He also strongly believes in lees contact. Some of his wines are never racked, tho many are racked after ML.

This is basically our process too. Allow the juice to brownout completely, refresh with a long cool ferment, leave the wine on the lees without racking until bottling at 19-21 months.
I don’t think this is all that unique among my peer group, although I keep the wines in barrel a little longer than most.

Honestly, the article seems like trying to make a pretty basic technique seem larger than life and perpetrate the crap/hype that is already too pervasive in this craft.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

@Eric Lundblad

I think I’ve posted about this on another thread…but repeating a good story never hurt anyone. Certainly my Dad firmly believed that

About 12 years ago or so, someone brought a 1979 Kistler Chardonnay (from winery lake vineyard, a popular vineyard back then) to a very large ‘old Ca’ offline. Heck, I didn’t know Kistler made wines back then (it was their first vintage). The wine was dead and darkish when first opened, so got ignored. I tried it an hour later and it had transformed it self into an excellent wine (an excellent wine…not an excellent wine considering). Add this to the list of surprising chard stories.

Cool story, and I would second the experience(not with 1979 Kistler) of having what appeared to be an over the hill dead wine turn into something lovely.

[John_Osburn]

Jason,

Thanks for the response! Another reason that aging wine often leads to fascinating results. This bottle turned out to be probably the best California Chardonnay I’ve ever tasted. Well worth the wait!

[Joe_Davis]

Does anyone remember the huge Chardonnay dejuicing tanks of the late 80’s? With extended skin contact on Chardonnay. Proved not to be the most effective way to make Chardonnay and those tanks have become extinct like the dinosaurs.

[Mel_Knox]

Dave Ramey wrote his Master’s thesis on skin contact in the early 80s…said it was fun with girls but not rec for chardonnay.

On the other hand, Duidier Dagueneau thought it was great for SB.

OK, I made the part about girls up myself. Gerald Asher once wrote that when he first heard about skin contact, he thought the party was going to be a lot more fun than he had planned on.

Burgundians tried the technique so many winemakers here thought it was an old practice there. Turned out they were trying it as the result of an Aussie suggestion.

[Jason_Jardine]

@John Osburn

Jason,

Thanks for the response! Another reason that aging wine often leads to fascinating results. This bottle turned out to be probably the best California Chardonnay I’ve ever tasted. Well worth the wait!

Great to hear it came around John! Come and visit sometime and I’ll open another one!

[Jason_Jardine]

@Joe Davis

Does anyone remember the huge Chardonnay dejuicing tanks of the late 80’s? With extended skin contact on Chardonnay. Proved not to be the most effective way to make Chardonnay and those tanks have become extinct like the dinosaurs.

Yep! My first winemaking gig was at Robert Mondavi Woodbridge in the mid 90’s and we had giant ~50 ton roto tanks we used to crush Chard into. The wines were actually a bit interesting but pretty sure those are no longer in use…

[Mel_Knox]

Maybe we could create a Hall of Fame for winemaker tools that never worked out. Estrella River used to centrifuge must into new Francois barrels…

[John_Osburn]

@Jason Jardine

@John Osburn

Jason,

Thanks for the response! Another reason that aging wine often leads to fascinating results. This bottle turned out to be probably the best California Chardonnay I’ve ever tasted. Well worth the wait!

Great to hear it came around John! Come and visit sometime and I’ll open another one!