Bologna help......not Oscar Meyer but Italy

Travel, Wine Tourism, and Restaurants Forum
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There are tourists. You will be a tourist. Tourists go to Venice for a reason.

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Lots of personal preference here:

  1. Even if it’s not a season filled with tourists, still the restaurants are designed for them. I find the food tends to fall to the lowest common denominator in predominantly tourist cities. Venice isn’t New York with millions of locals to support good food.
  2. In tourist cities, there’s a much higher occurrence of people trying to sell you stuff or take advantage of you. I don’t find it relaxing to be constantly worried about pick pockets, swindling or panhandling.
  3. There isn’t much modern culture
  4. I don’t find catholic buildings interesting. I find them morally disgusting, actually, but that’s a longer discussion.
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Ignore Paul, Marshall. Ignore the tourists, too. Wait until they clear out. Then get lost in the back streets late at night. Find a restaurant packed with Italians and wait for a table. It’s a beautiful and romantic city and there is nowhere else in the world quite like it.

24

A tough debate. I share the pain of mass tourism that Paul describes (and I have been put off going myself, because what he describes is what I expect). However I’ll add in somesecond hand advice that I see (consistently offered) on Slow trav forum:

  1. Stay in Venice itself, and see the more popular parts in the morning or late evening. Once everyone comes in by boat, train etc. head elsewhere until the crowds dissipate.
  2. Get lost! i.e. head away from the major thoroughfares, away from the crowds.

Another forumite gave some very extensive advice on Venice recently, which came across as a balanced insight, highlighting the good, bad and ugly of the city.

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Well, yes, if you are looking for modern culture and hate “catholic buildings,” Venice might not be the place for you.

Also, there are plenty of places to eat well in Venice but I would not say it is a place to visit primarily for eating.

But it is unique. Architecturally, topographically, aesthetically. No cars, no motorcycles, no trucks. Even at the height of the day, if you wander away from San Marco you can (and will) get totally lost and find yourself alone in a tiny square, surrounded by magnificent crumbling edifices and canals, listening to the water lap against the stone. Go out to dinner and walk along the neighborhoods away from the crowds; it is just gorgeous.

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Well, yes, if you are looking for modern culture and hate “catholic buildings,” Venice might not be the place for you.

Also, there are plenty of places to eat well in Venice but I would not say it is a place to visit primarily for eating.

But it is unique. Architecturally, topographically, aesthetically. No cars, no motorcycles, no trucks. Even at the height of the day, if you wander away from San Marco you can (and will) get totally lost and find yourself alone in a tiny square, surrounded by magnificent crumbling edifices and canals, listening to the water lap against the stone. Go out to dinner and walk along the neighborhoods away from the crowds; it is just gorgeous.[/quote]


Thanks again! Paul; I can appreciate your perspective but for me, the positives seem to far outweigh the negatives. I will be staying there and will be able to avoid quite a bit of the crowds and the other issues don’t usually bother me. Venice seems totally unique and I look forward to spending time there.


Cheers!
Marshall [cheers.gif]

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I love Venice.

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Hi Marshall
I don’t know if this would change your plans, but the wonderful ‘GAC’ has posted of a direct airport bus service from Rome to Florence (and Rome to Naples).
http://www.slowtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69050

The advantage of such services, is that that are direct to the airport, so no changing trains in a busy station with heavy bags. Cheap as well. The downside is that it makes sense to leave plenty of leeway for flight delays (or bus delays if taking the bus back to the airport).

regards
Ian

29

I’ll respond to your 4 points in order:

  1. With some 20 million + visitors a year, it’s inevitable that the restaurant industry in Venice would be commercialized. Folks who are well-travelled and know Venice also know that it is not a culinary destination. However, with some prior research, one can eat well in Venice - indeed, very well. Had you done your research, you would have been aware of an organization called Ristoranti della Buona Accoglienza (Restaurants of Good Hospitality), a group of chef owners and owners who strive to offer authentic Venetian cuisine at a good price point. As a group, these restaurants could not be more different than the tourist traps that line the areas in and around the Piazza San Marco and Rialto. Venture deep into the Dorsoduro and you will find gems like the Enoteca Ai Artisti. Moreover, visiting Venice would not be complete without going to the many bacari or wine bars that offer a true Venetian experience. Even in high season, there are bacari found in side and back streets that tourists rarely set foot in. You can have your fill of small plates and glasses of wine that will not come close to denting your wallet.

  2. Please tell me where among the great tourist destinations of the world will you find little in the way of scams, pickpockets, etc? A little precaution and awareness goes a long way toward preventing being taken advantage of. If you find it difficult to relax when you’re in tourist cities, and indeed, in Venice, what’s the sense in traveling abroad?

  3. The first rule in traveling abroad is to take every country on its on own terms rather than impose your values on the country. It’s how we respect other cultures as visitors. Your complaint that Venice lacks much modern culture is absurd, just as it would be absurd for me to complain that Portland lacks Qing dynasty culture. Part of the charm of Venice is precisely that it retains much of its past.

  4. By “catholic buildings” I take it to mean churches, convents and monasteries? YOU’RE IN ITALY, what do you expect? Were the catholic buildings in Modena less “morally disgusting,” as you write? Had you taken Venice on its own terms, rather than impose your biases, you might have enjoyed it more.

Venice is singular, and there’s no place like it. I heard its siren call the very first time I set foot there, and it has enchanted me ever since.

A final word about being a tourist as Neal and others have echoed. No matter how well-traveled and knowledgeable we are, we’re all tourists when we go abroad. I lived in Rome for three years, visited Venice and Italy some 36 times and 50 times respectively, speak the language fluently (alas, with a slight New York accent), and I’m still a tourist whenever I’m there. Trying not to be a tourist makes no sense, and if anything, marks one as a tourist.

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All
It is Peter’s posts on Venice that I referred to above. They strike me as a very good insight into whether Venice appeals or not. Each can make their own decision using his insight.

Hi Peter
I’ll disagree slightly on 2. I get frustrated with the people that grow fat, dumb and happy on the mass tourist trade, blighting some of the most visually / intellectually appealing places in Italy. This doesn’t stop me travelling abroad, but it has steered me away from the famous & popular, revealing a deeper love for the simple and mundane charms of Italy. So there is sense in travelling abroad despite being frustrated with mass tourism, but in tailoring the locations to suit my preferences / prejudices I can ensure my frustrations aren’t revealed.

With 3. I fear that many tourists do exactly that (impose their own culture) on the mass tourist trail, ignorant of the local culture, but keen to see the famous sites. If enough of us descend on a place, our culture starts to impinge on the local culture. Any criticism of Venice not being modern enough is indeed rather missing the point of it’s appeal, but it is a valid reason for someone who prefers the ‘reality’ of a more modern city encompassing the old town within it, ensuring the experience feels more grounded. Like seeking balance in wine, each has a different balance in what we seek on holiday.

With 4. I think I know where Neal is on this - my partner walked out of the Vatican seething at the opulence. That is a whole different debate and one we probably should avoid.

regards
Ian

31

Ha! That wasn’t my “seething at opulence” point, but I understand it. The Roman church’s role in history, and indeed, in the modern world, is complicated and certainly there is lots to condemn. So, boycott Rome? How about Berlin and Vienna? How about Beijing? For that matter, how about Washington? If you are going to start striking places off your itinerary because of the horrible deeds done by those who have inhabited the space, man, you are going to be staying at home a lot!

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Paul,
With respect to your #3, have you been to La Biennale? Biennale is all about modern Italian and international culture. We went to our first Biennale in 2015 and plan to go again this year.

The 2017 Biennale schedule of events:

57th International Art Exhibition - May 13th > November 26th
11th International Festival of Contemporary Dance – June 23rd > July 1st
45th International Theatre Festival - July 25th > August 12th
74th Venice International Film Festival - August 30th > September 9th
61st International Festival of Contemporary Music – September 29th > October 8th

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100% agree!
I’m going in May for my approximately 10th time. My favorite city destination. I’ll fly into Bologna first for two nights, then 5 in Venice.

Marshall, next time we get together, we should look at a city map of Venice and I’ll show you the less tourists areas, the crowded areas and when the crowded ones are much less crowded.

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My apologies - damned embedded quotes!

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Venice is wonderful and unlike any other city in the world. Eat dinner late and wander the backstreets. You’ll find lots of little restaurants loaded with natives. Try to find one where they don’t speak English (there are lots of them). I’ve never had a bad meal doing this.

DO NOT go to a Michelin starred restaurant. I’ve done this twice and have had terrible (and expensive) experiences. DO go to Harry’s Bar. It is expensive. Maybe you don’t eat at Harry’s. But you have to go to the bar. If you can get a little table in the corner ($10 to the Matre de will work wonders) and order a Bellini. Either let your mind intellectually wander ignoring the crowd or extemporaneously start a crazy conversation with the crowd. Or go at lunch; the crowds are smaller. This is as touristy as it gets but I promise it will be something you’ll remember.

There are thousands of little shops along the walkway and bridges that line the canal. You can tell which are touristy rip-offs and which are not.

Yes, be vigilant of pick pockets. And know your money i.e. what each bill is in US. I keep bigger bills and Tricia keeps the smaller bills. That way when we pay for something we don’t flash a wad. Better is to use a credit card. There are lots of them that don’t charge a conversion rate. Get one with an “electronic chip” in it. If you need currency, using an “auto teller” currency exchange type of kiosk is a lot cheaper than going to a regular currency exchange or bank. These auto-tellers only accept cards with “chips”.

What to see: Everywhere you look; around every turn you will see something different and interesting. Tiny squares, huge squares, restaurant tables lined up by the hundreds, old buildings (LOL) everywhere (historical, religious, or otherwise—all interesting in one way or another).

Another “Must” IMHO: Take the Water Taxi to the islands of Murano and Burano. You won’t believe the different colors on the houses. And visit at least one Glass Factory. Years ago we bought some beautiful drinking glasses. Look for ones where the “artist” has signed/engraved each glass. They aren’t cheap but they will package them up and give you a receipt legitimately calling them “works of art”. If the customs laws are the same as when we did this there is no duty charged on “works of art”. Not that you want to buy pearls in Venice but if you buy expensive “precious jewelry” anywhere… if the stones are unstrung or not mounted as a finished product there is no US duty charged. I don’t know if this is all still true but it is something you might want to check.

Go and have fun. It isn’t as crowded as Santa Barbara can be. Enjoy!

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Back onto Bologna comments for Marshall please [thankyou.gif]

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Thanks Dave!

Barry, You know that we will talk! flirtysmile

Thanks Ian!!! Excellent idea!


Cheers!
Marshall [pillow-fight.gif]

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http://www.osteriadepoeti.com/

Fantastic atmosphere, great food. Highly recommend going there.

Bologna also has a lot of cooking classes, etc. which are pretty cool. A couple of days in Bologna is plenty.

I would never not recommend Venice - at least once. It is touristy but it’s amazing. Not sure what the appeal of Modena is (the buildings in Emilia Romagna are a bit less interesting in my opinion than most of the rest of the country.). I’ve been to Modena several times, but I’m a total gearhead, and it is the land of Italian motorcycles, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc.

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Marshall, we’ll be staying in Parma in June for a couple days and might make it over to Bologna. If we do, I’ll email you with our thoughts.

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Thanks Paul… flirtysmile



Looking forward to any insight you might add!

Cheers!
Marshall [cheers.gif]