I wasn’t even considering “USA copy” brews when I stated my opinion. IMO, nobody out-Belgians the Belgians; yes, some U.S.A. brewers are making excellent sours, but they don’t even come close to matching what the Belgians do in that arena; of note: many U.S.A. sours are not actually “wild” ales, as they are inoculated with their fermenting bacteria and yeasts. Nobody does Saison like the Belgians; and nobody comes close to matching their dubbels, tripels, and quads. Belgian strong pale ale? I can recall only a couple non-Belgian brews of this style that weren’t disgusting. Even Belgium’s low-brow beer (i.e. Stella Artois) is head-and-shoulders better than the same from the States (Budweiser; MGD; Coors; etc. …). YMMV.
Brian, your experiences have been different than mine. I find Belgian sours for the most part to be pretty unexciting with the majority, particularly the reds, to be too sweet and uninspiring. Once Rodenbach was bought out their beers have all dropped to the point of being kind of lame and theirs used to be quite good, particularly the Alexander (which they no longer make). I agree with you that most American wild ales are innoculated with their yeast strains but so are almost all of the Belgians except for a handful. And once you get past the guezes, then I’m not really sure if I care where the yeast strain came from since they aren’t spontaneous fermented. From my understanding, the US will have more breweries doing naturally fermented beers than than the Belgians in a few short years. As for doubles, tripels, quads and the like, I’ve had many in the US that favor comparably to the Belgians. And to be truthful, I think a lot of the Belgians, such as Chimay to name one, are losing much of what made them so tasty in the past.
As for saisons, a style I do like quite a bit, there are several that I can get locally that are better than any that I have ever had in Belgium or France. Stillwater, for example, is making several saisons that are more interesting than what I have had in Europe. I have to pass on low-brow beers since I don’t drink them really, but i’ve never thought much of Stella. At its price point in the US, I can find dozens of lagers that are far superior that i do buy - same for Belgium and the Netherlands.
Over the past 2 decades, I have taken several dedicated beer treks around Belgium and have enjoyed all of them. For the most part though I now got to Amsterdam to get my “Belgian beer” fix and am more interested in what the Dutch are doing beer-wise. I just think the Belgians through consolidations and declining markets are a bit off their game and the US is leading the world in quality and innovative beers. As always I am open to being proven wrong.
I appreciate the discussion, James. I’m not interested in proving anyone wrong (not even possible in a matter of opinion, anyways 
), just interested in the conversation, and a good conversation wouldn’t be possible without differences of opinion, right!?! 
IMO, the Belgian style that the U.S. does best is Saison. That said, I still think the best American Saisons (i.e.: North Coast’s “La Merle” and Boulevard’s “Tank 7”) take a back seat to the best of Belgium (i.e.: Fuiellien; Vapeur; Fantome). Your voice is another in the chorus of great things I’ve heard about the Stillwater — I’m looking forward to trying it someday.
Totally agree Brian. Long day at work so my apologies if I came across harshly. I’m sure we have far more that we agree upon than don’t. Beer discussion is usually better over beer anyway.
I agree with you on Fantome and Vapeur. Two really good breweries. Really hard to get the Fantome around here so I grab whatever I can whenever I can. Even his bad ones are interesting.
I would imagine that Stillwater will be available in Europe soon if not already. He’s expanding quickly and seems to be looking at the European market. He used to be a DJ who spent a good bit of time in Europe.
You didn’t come across harshly, James, so don’t worry 'bout that. I agree with you about the Rodenbach being too sweet — the regular Rodenbach is way too sweet for my preferences, and both the Grand Cru and the Vintage bottlings I would prefer to be less sweet, although I do feel that way about most Flanders Reds.
A lot has changed. Logsdon, Crooked Stave, Prairie Artisan, Cascade, Funkwerks, Black Raven, Ale Aopthecary, Upright & others I’m forgetting have really embraced the idea that wild yeast & barrel aging one can still run a successful brewery.
I was in the camp that cringed for years when I saw “Saison” or “Tripel” on American craft bottles. I love Belgians, but the reality is we see less and less of the Cantillons & Drie Fonteinens of the world these days. I can’t & won’t buy any more DuPont bottles for fear of skunk as I have no control over supply chain etc, Fantome has been notorious in the last couple of years for filthy bottles. I mean tons of sludge in the bottom. Not sure if that’s the same in Europe for them.
Brian- I can’t wait until:
A- you get back & we have the mother of all bottleshares
B- You let me know next time I can get a package to someone to take to you over there.
Totally agree with all of this. ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
I have not followed this whole discussion, and I am goign back to read it. However, I saw this comment and wanted to say that I am glad I am not the only one who finds the new Rodenbach to not be as good as the original.
Would have been a better list if Asheville was left off. Too many out of towners coming in as it is.
BTW New Belgium is building here and Oskar Blue is producing just a short ways away in Brevard.
SIerra Nevada just installed tanks down at their new site near the airport. These bigger guys are good to have around (jobs + benefits) but nothing beats the nightly scene at the Wedge, Wicked Weed or Pisgah Brewing IMO. The beer is good too
I represent French Broad Brewery in the Midwest, and have been preaching about the Asheville scene for years - so I was overjoyed to see them on the list -
I agree with you that the big “micro” brewers building East Coast breweries (Stone, New Belgium, Sierra Nevada, etc…) is a mixed bag. Solid breweries that will be supplying fresher beer to a growing East Coast market. More local jobs is always good. On the other hand, I fear that they may use their market power to prevent the next Stone, New Belgium, etc… from starting as a small, local start up. I like the direction of the craft beer movement but fear this new middle tier of really large craft brewers will hurt the local aspect that is what makes it so exciting.
It’s a valid concern, but I truly wouldn’t worry about it too much. All along the west coast, we’ve seen nothing but amazing collaboration between the big guys and little guys. Heck, you go to the National Homebrew Conference and you’ll run into Jamie from Ninkasi, Mitch from Stone, giving talks, offering feedback, etc. “but these are just homebrewers you say”. Yeah, but a lot of them are the people who will be opening up the next corner brewery. These guys know that the way to expand the craft beer market is to increase the number of people who drink craft beer. And the more people who are exposed to (good) craft beer, the better off the entire market place is.
Brian, in response to your inquiry. Alpine has contracted with Cold Springs Brewing in Minnesota to bottle and can Duet, Nelson and Hoppy Birthday as per their production increase plan that took a huge hit when nobody bought into their local expansion offering. My question to Alpine is, wouldn’t it be advisable to fix the massive QC issues here at home before shipping your problems across country. All three beers being contracted have fallen off dramatically over the last year. The last bottle of Duet I had was a drain pour. They really need to clean up their home kitchen before taking on such a aggressive expansion plan.
Cheers,
Bud
I hope so, but I also saw New Belgium bumpers being sold for 3.99 when they started selling in the DC market. I’ve seen some similar pricing from the other big guys. The bigger they get the more the business side has to play into it - it has to.
Sure. At the same time, think about the BMC drinker who is walking around the beer aisle and sees this bomber of New Belgium on sale and says “Ya know, I’ve heard a lot about this. This is a big ass bottle of beer and it’s on sale. Let me try it and see what it’s like.” Mind = Blown. Downward spiral commences. At least I hope.
Ha! Cold Springs is less than an hour from a little town at which my family and I vacation each year; I should be there at the end of this June — do you know if Cold Springs Brewery is doing the Alpine yet?
They are not brewing yet. It was just announced. I believe they begin this fall. I will stay as far away from this project as possible.
Cheers,
Bud
This fall, huh? Well, that will be too late for me to check-in on what they’re doing this year. I’m hoping that different people in a different location in a different part of the country might - just maybe - equal a better experience.
Well, according to the results of a meaningless online poll, Grand Rapids was just named “Beer City USA” for 2013, capturing a whopping 27,005 out of 50,000 votes. Normally, I wouldn’t care about this, but a few bars are offering $1.50 pints of MI brews ![[wow.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/7/7d450e9830889c8943b674446a21b7254cad657e.gif "wow"){kind=small}
on Monday to celebrate the win. Oy, I think someone might be calling in sick on Tuesday.
I’d rather drink beer in Brugge than anywhere else.