Stuart - One of the most intelligently written posts I’ve read on the board in a long time. Very well said and I can’t agree more.
Way to many wines get dumped or put aside based on color alone. I drink a lot of White Burgundy and do run across the golden, nutty wines that are obviously shot, but the percentage of wines I come across as un-drinkable is far lower than what I see reported on this board. Sure some bottles are fresher than others and some bottles are better than others but that can be said for just about any wine you open.
Isn’t oxidation part of the aging process? It drives me crazy to hear people say a 15-20 year White wine is pre-moxed - how long are you planning on aging it? What is your drinking window/expectation for these wines? Wines don’t last forever and Older does not necessarily mean better.
Stop evaluating wines looking for the flaws but instead look for the positives about the wine. You may not find anything you like about the wine which is OK, but when you go in looking for its flaws most likely you will find something and when you see one with golden color don’t assume its shot.
Next time you run across that golden colored WB - instead of pouring it out, pour it in a decanter put it in your fridge and watch what happens to it over the next hours or even days - you may be pleasantly surprised!
Sometimes a wine just needs air…and, I think, many of us, including me, jump to conclusions that it must be premoxed when it is not oxidized at all. The fruit needs to “come out”. And, that wine might be showing badly for reasons unrelated to oxidation. (I find this often with Dauvissat wines, which almost always taste better to me the next day…and I won’t open one until it’s at least 10 years old!)
Since I stopped buying with the 2005-6 vintage and am drinking mainly wines before 2001 at this point…the wines from the '90s (I had the Niellon '96) are not “premoxed” , per se, but showing oxidation like a 19 year old wine might. So, it is more difficult to tell with those wines, which are arguably “mature”.
Assuming the wine is young enough to be premoxed…I think the crazy thing about this phenomenon is that all wines are not unpleasant even if they are prematurely oxidized. They often are just weird…good fruit and the sherry aspects that I don’t want in a wine, but…the overall effect is palatable, even if not pleasing.
Then, there is the confusion with other issues like TCA; lack of oxygen; sulphur, etc…which some ascribe to premox…and which are different issues…that can be cured with air (though TCA can’t.)
Steven, I think that’s my point about being “overly” paranoid. The thrill is gone…as the song goes…just by overanalysis. I know it can be for me. When I get a WB ready to open the next day or so…I no longer look forward as much as I did in the past; my expectations are dampened. I do open early in the day I want to drink to assess and to aerate enough to get the best out of the wine. But…I’d rather go back to the “oh, well bad luck” daze.
I think it’s a variation of “be careful what you ask for; you might get it”.
Being pessimistic or even wary is no way to enjoy life.
As I’ve said ad nauseam, I stopped buying wine (except for Dauvissat and Vernay and some Sottimano Barbaresco) after 2007, so I am not evaluating whether to continue buying WB, as many people here are debating. As I try not to think too much in hypotheticals (to preserve my sanity) in general, I honestly haven’t thought much about what I’d be doing if I were still buying. I’d like to think I would be smart enough to not buy; but, when I made my last purchases, I already knew about the problems, which had been known for 6-7 years minimum by then. I think, though, I was always optimistic (maybe delusional) that there was a quick fix. I thought so particularly after my last visit , in 2007, when the “thinking” producers I respect were pondering the problem.
Stuart,
I think you are hitting on something essential, that things have changed and we are confused, so maybe we are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
One one hand, Burgundies are not as funky and idiosyncratic as they used to be. The wineries are cleaner and expression of fruit is better. On one hand you don t have to wait 5+ years to enjoy but on the other, the wines don’t make old bones as they used to.
Bordeaux has changed a lot, but it is easier to make red wines with integrated tannins and long drinking windows.
If you look at the oxidised wiki page, there are lots of wineries with little or no problems. It also seems that the situation is improving.
I do remember the first time I ever encountered this issue. Two collectors, at whose table I have enjoyed many a great wine, opened up 7 Montrachets from 1995. This might have been 2003…or so.
Five were bad. Tasting were French and American winemakers, connoisseurs, etc…a bunch of unhappy campers to be sure.
Thanks, Mel. We are indeed “confused” and in fear, which is no way to enjoy things like WB.
The wiki is comforting, but I think people mainly post bad bottles, which skews things.
I encountered a whole case of oxidized 1989 Corton Charlemagne in the '90s. When I told the producer on a visit in 2001, he thought I was nuts. But, he suggested that he pull two bottles and that we come back the next day. They were oxidized. I’ve long wondered whether this was the harbinger; I certainly was unaware of any issue that early. (And, some later vintages were shot, too, thought the 1988 and 1990 and 1993 were great with no problems, but his 1999s were bad…i kept opening them hoping.
I sure wish they’d figure out the cause. At least , on that level, we’d have some closure…on an issue that is baffling. (Pun intended). I really wonder how hard “they” are trying to figure it out.
The incidence of early maturing white Burgundies in my cellar has diminished significantly with the passing of the 1995 and 1996 vintages, and I am not spending any time worrying about whether I will encounter a PreMox wine when I order or open a bottle of subsequent vintages.
The cause may be related to a number of factors, but this doesn’t concern me. I am seeking pleasure from white Burgundies. Initially I began to drink them earlier but have also found that many age beautifully.
My solution to minimize the incidence…SELECTION ! SELECTION ! SELECTION! Stay with producers where my experience has been favourable.
From a French point of view, this discussion seems so unreal.
I’ve been drinking white burgundies for more than 20 years. I have direct access to some of the major producers in Burgundy and I almost never had any premoxed wine, even wines from the 90s. I’m still drinking many of them which are still incredibly complex and young. As far as I can remember, I might have had 2 or 3 bottles obviously oxidized but that’s all.
Since I’m in San Diego, I buy wine from all over the place (my wines are still in my cellar in France) and I have noticed a high rate of oxidized wines. The point is that some of the wines I know are not oxidized in France but are here. Recently, some wines from Matrot (96), Verget (95, 97), guffens (94), Niellon (96), Ballot Millot (02) were oxidized. The same drunk in France were just perfect. I must also admit I had premoxed wines with Muenchberg 94 Ostertag, Laville Ht Brion 96 or Languedoc La Begou 11 Magnon.
My feeling is that poor storage and transportation conditions might be the issues as the same wines show differently in France.
This has been suggested before: the same wines are fine in La France. The wines in France are fine, for the most part.
I’d say several things:
This has been, for the most part, discredited, ie, the effect of “conditions” in the US or the transportation…as a cause of the random effect.
WB producers in France have identified for me that they have the problem in wines they have kept in Burgundy instead of selling.
I have experienced the problem (though I believe ,as I have titled this thread, is less frequent than we imagine and that we look for it and “find” it more than it exists in many cases). I bought all of my affected wines directly at the wineries; had them shipped, in winter, in climate controlled “reefers”, trucked the same to my place, where they have been stored in conditions that do not exceed 68 degrees ever).
So…though such explanations/impressions have been discussed repeatedly on this Board and other places…I am rehashing this since it is your first post on this Board. And, reiterating, that purported “poor storage and transportation” could not possibly explain the randome effect within given cases anyway.
France is a great place…but it is not immune from prem-ox of White Burgundy.
I think if this happened to me, I would stop collecting white burg. I lucked out that when I started to go deep into white burgundy in the 04 vintage, the idea of premox and the biggest problem producers were well identified so I avoided them.
But I do have some empathy as I bought a good deal of 07 leflaive and that vintage seems to have completely gone to shit for Leflaive in regards to premox. So uh, if anyone wants some mags i got you
Thanks Stuart but honestly I don’t see why WB would be drinking well in France and not in the US.
Very few premox wines when I’m in France and I think I might have drunk at least 150 bottles per year in the last 10/15 years with only 2 or 3 oxidized wines.
There are wine forums in France as well and premox for white burgundies is not a big deal. We hardly ever talk about that just because we have very few cases of oxidized white burgundies. This is weird, I know.
I’ve been tasting with a group of friends since 2002 and I can’t remember last time we had a premox white.
As I said, I think we have exaggerated the incidence of the problem in the US, as we are “looking” for it. (And the premox WIKI, i"ve learned, is mainly a place where people report oxidized wines, rather than good ones, so the problem seems more prevalent.)
No idea why have your experience is so good. There are many potential explanations, including that it is not so good.
Drinking/tasting WB young will help cut down the problem, for sure. (I rarely read any notes by Jeremy Holmes where he is reporting premox.)
Perhaps in Europe people actually prepare/aerate wines ahead of time…and can eliminate the oxidized wines from showing up at the table. I open and aerate all my WB, as I think almost all such wines of all ages deserve-- and need —it to show their best. But, unless I’m trying to educate someone…I won’t serve a corked or oxidized bottle. Maybe people in Europe are more careful/considerate?
In the US people don’t seem to try their bottles of WB before pouring them. That can lead people to conclude , as I have, that some bottles that aren’t oxidized are oxidized. (I had that happen with two wines in July: a '96 Niellon and a 2000 Sauzet Combettes; they both turned out ok with aeration.)
And…then…some people don’t find flaws in any wines they taste. Right, Hank? And, then there are people, like those from Egypt, who are in “de nile”.
Nice to get input from France, Denis. But how does that explain the fact that we rarely had premoxed bottles in the US before 1995, then an explosion? And how do explain that several producers in France have made fairly significant changes in an attempt to cut down on premox (eg Fevre)?
I just ran a search on the discussion forum on Jancis’ website.
Two pages of different threads on premox …most of them started by citizens of the UK.
Maybe WB just has to cross a body of salt water and bingo the process begins. I feel sorry for people who live in Utah…they are double whammied.
[quote=“Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow”] (I rarely read any notes by Jeremy Holmes where he is reporting premox.)
quote]
Hi Stuart,
In the last month or so I have described a 07 Sauzet Batard, 2001 Comtes Lafon Montrachet and 2010 Lucien Le Moine Corton Blanc at varying degrees of advancement. I certainly don’t report on every oxidised bottle I encounter and I certainly encounter a lot more wines affected by tca. Both are equally annoying as they destroy the wine.
Whilst the instances of oxidised whites in France for me seems lower we certainly encountered a few back in May this year. A 2005 Carillon Bienvenues at Troisgros being the most advanced and disappointing. Our Somm quickly replaced the wine on pouring and when I asked if he encountered many oxidised whites his reply was ‘a lot’.
I was lucky with my stray bottles of 07 Leflaive, but they also got drank up way early.
A couple of thoughts about paranoia, etc.
America is a much more litigious society than Europe, for better and worse. We tend to be less sanguine about failure and so we look for it and demand a recourse when it happens. My European friends find this a little strange about America. I think we (American Burg enthusiasts) are definitely paranoid about PremOx - “overly” depends a lot on how outraged you are when a bottle shows poorly.
I definitely cut my purchases during 02-06 vintages to almost nothing except a few 04s - beginning with 07 I began buying and cellaring again, albeit from select producers and on a smaller scale.
Charlie, did you encounter premox in Mags? I have (maybe wrongly) the notion that premox in Mags are incredibly rare.
All the WB Mags I have had from 1996,1997,1999,200,2001,2002 have been healthy
Anyway it is realy a shame with the Leflaives
I agree with most Stuart (BeauneHead) has written above.
Although I have no experience with WB bottles from the US my personal feeling is that premox infact may be more often to be found across the Atlantic - so far agreeing with coates.
However, my definite premox rate is way below 5%, maybe 2 or 3% - far less that corked bottles - and I also 2nd the opinion that most/several/some bottles are simply “aged” and would be pleasant with enough air.
IMHO a typical premoxed WB has a strong smell and taste of (rotten) apple juice, almost nothing winey among it … if it´s only “nutty” it´s more a sign of “aged oxidation”, but not pre-mature.
In my tasting of 24 white Grands crus some 14 months ago there was only one single bottle (a 1998 Bienvenue-BM) that could have been called advanced, but with retasting it the day after I´m convinced that it was only nicely aged, not premoxed - so the rate in this tasting was zero%.
I have absolutely no idea why there are so many suspicious bottles explicitely West of the Atlantic (and still less any idea what´s the reason for the problem at all) - but although I buy far less WB than red (due to the many fine white wines here in Austria) I certainly will not kill many bottles far too young just to escape the possibility of finding one definitely undrinkably premoxed.
I really wonder how hard “they” are trying to figure it out.![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
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And, then there are people, like those from Egypt, who are in “de nile”.