Am I, are we, paying too much for great Napa cab?

[Paul_Fountain]

@Nick Ryan

You’d think Australia could do it with the climate they have and their track record in ripe Syrah but not yet… or at least nobody is willing to import them.

I get the feeling that you don’t get very much Australian Cabernet in the US, but we probably get far less Napa Cabernet so I have no idea where it stands in comparison. Most of the best Australian Cabernet doesn’t come from the same regions where the best shiraz comes from.

[Alan_Eden]

@Richard Leland

@Mel Knox

I remember when Joe Heitz was selling his '68 Martha’s for $11.

If you paid $11 for the '68 Martha’s you were robbed. That’s when Bill Cadman was working in the cellar and Joe let his employees buy as much as they wanted at the wholesale price of $8. Everyone in our tasting group (Mike Richmond, Bruce Neyers, Leigh Pomeroy and others) bought cases of the stuff.

Average salary in 1968 was around $110, so a case of Marthas at $11 was just over a weeks salary, average salary in 2015 was $1000 and a case of Marthas was around $1500 so slightly more expensive proportionally but only a little

Its amazing how the old days seemed better when in fact they werent

[Alan_Eden]

@Joe B

@Alan Eden

If you look at the price of fine wine relative to earnings it is generally more affordable now than its ever been, a good bottle of Napa cab is not that bad at $125 when most households here are earning well over six figures. Compare to a $40 thirty years ago when i bet your salary was way less than 30% of what it is today

Here…, where?

30 years ago, i was 17 making $3.35 an hour at a fast food restaurant.

Exactly, way less at 17

Even at $100K which is im guessing low for the average salary on WB thats $50 an hour so your at 7 % thirty years ago

[Alan_Eden]

@Markus S

@Alan Eden

… when most households here are earning well over six figures…

If your not i guarantee your in the minority

You really think blue collar workers on $40K household are buying SQN, DRC and Napa cabs.

I bet there are more net worth millionaires on here than there are people with household incomes under $100K. If most people here take all their investments, 401K, etc and roll up to possible cash out value i would think im correct

Hell, i bet there are a significant amount of six figure cellars on here, thats only a case or two of DRC or Petrus or SE

[Joe_B]

@Alan Eden

@Markus S

@Alan Eden

… when most households here are earning well over six figures…

If your not i guarantee your in the minority

You really think blue collar workers on $40K household are buying SQN, DRC and Napa cabs.

I bet there are more net worth millionaires on here than there are people with household incomes under $100K. If most people here take all their investments, 401K, etc and roll up to possible cash out value i would think im correct

Maybe at the end of 2015, but ive lost a lot of money in 2016 so…

[Mel_Knox]

When Joe Heitz sold his '68 for $11 I was paying less than $8.
If I had known Cadman was in the cellar I would have run for the hills.

Unlike Mike Richmond I didn’t put my wine in the garage and forget about it. For his retirement party he brought out all the wines he had cooked over the years.

I saw around 1977 that the 1975 was selling for the same price as ten yo wine so I bought a bunch of '70s and '66s. I learned then that what people are doing when they buy forward is dreaming of a wonderful future. This is an odd point to me, that it always seems you can buy mature claret for the price of the next great vintage of the decade.

[Joe_B]

@Scott Fitzgerald

Joe, you and only you have to decide whether you’re getting the value out of these wines. It’s like the old Warren Buffett quote, “Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.”

In this hobby, I think we sometimes develop this twisted “wine math” that makes it nothing to drop $150 on a bottle of wine, but then wrestle over whether $50 is too much for a dress shirt, for example. It all comes down to whether you believe you’re getting a solid ROI with your wine purchases.

I’d also challenge you to find wines out there (maybe not Napa cabs) which deliver an equal or better wine experiences for much less money.

Actually, like most people here, i do have alternative wines that I enjoy. Zinfandel and syrah and shiraz. And luckily for me, great in these veriatels, dont cost an arm and a leg. But also not the same enjoyment for me as the Napa cabs.

Still, i recently discovered Outpost Zinfandel Howell mountain for $50. I am trying to source a bottle of Black Sears Zin for $50 or less but havent found it reliably. Im having issues with a few bad winebid bottles right now so…

[mike_pobega]

Joe, before I read all l other postings in this thread I want to respond with this: these are the golden years of Napa Cabernet and in my humble estimation and after watching the pulse of or this all since 1985, I can honestly say that I can not remember us Cab lovers ever having it so good. That said, yes, unfortunately that all comes with a price but there are great deals out there for those with a real zest to find the.

Now let me read the rest of this thing from post 2 down…

[Michael_S_Monie]

Video: The Cost And Profit Breakdown of $150 Cab.

I’m wondering if Joe saw this and if he did, does he give it any credibility.

[Joe_B]

@Michael S. Monie

Video: The Cost And Profit Breakdown of $150 Cab. - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers
I’m wondering if Joe saw this and if he did, does he give it any credibility.

I did and i think some of that is inflated.

[Dennis_Kanagie]

@Joe B

When does this bubble burst?

When inflation reverses. Virtually EVERYTHING is more expensive than it was 30 years ago. Depending on fads and style, some items went up more, some didn’t increase as much.

Maybe this isn’t a perfect analogy, but indulge me for a minute. Maybe we should look at CaliCabs like baseball players. The young stars typically don’t command the money a proven veteran does. The first few years of their career is when you get them cheap because you’re paying for an unknown product. After they make a name for themselves, the cost to sign (buy) them them goes up exponentially. Eventually, their skills diminish and they command less money but still can trade on their reputation just like certain wineries fall out of favor after a while because their style isn’t in fashion anymore.

One other point: if people are still buying something at the increased price, than it still isn’t too expensive.

[Scott_E1]

@Dennis Kanagie

One other point: if people are still buying something at the increased price, than it still isn’t too expensive.

This pretty much sums it up. It was very painful for me to have to pass on Schrader this year, but everyone has their limits and it is obvious that there are a lot of wine buyers out there with a lot of money to spend. You just have to let it go…

[Victor_Hong]

@Markus S

@Alan Eden

… when most households here are earning well over six figures…

Must be nice to be rich.
(Maybe less rich, if buying recent Napa cabernet sauvignon.)

[Markus_S]

@Victor Hong

@Markus S

@Alan Eden

… when most households here are earning well over six figures…

Must be nice to be rich.
(Maybe less rich, if buying recent Napa cabernet sauvignon.)

I wish, Victor. I’m laughing at the assumptions made. People always think you have to be upper income to enjoy fine wine, whereas I think it is more a matter of your priorities…

[Diana_E]

Was just thinking about this. Napa Cab was my first serious wine crush, back in the 80s. Still love it, but don’t buy much because we tend to get as much pleasure from a good Zin. And then there’s, you know, the prices.

This week, we drank a 2009 GIII found at a great deal from Last Bottle, I think. Bought several, this is the first one open. It was fascinating and different, went great with sous vide filet. Really enjoyed it. Also really enjoyed the $20 bottle of Bedrock Syrah we opened the next night with chili. Love variety, but also love a good deal.

[Alan_Eden]

I had the 2014 Bedrock NC Syrah last night as well

There is a level of complexity and depth that the good cabs have that a wine like the Bedrock NC will never get to, its just not a fair fight. Now a Bedrock Oakville against a Napa cab now thats a fair fight

[Victor_Hong]

@Markus S

…
I wish, Victor. I’m laughing at the assumptions made. People always think you have to be upper income to enjoy fine wine, whereas I think it is more a matter of your priorities…

Perhaps, upper outgo, financially?

[Michael_S_Monie]

There is a guy here in N.O. who has thought of himself as a restaurant and food critic for about the last 40 years. He’s recently started saying that is thinks that a double cut pork chop is as good as a top quality beefsteak. I think he is dreaming. No disrespect, but no matter how enjoyable other varieties may be, nothing compares to Cabernet Sauvignon.

[Dennis_Kanagie]

@Michael S. Monie

No disrespect, but no matter how enjoyable other varieties may be, nothing compares to Cabernet Sauvignon.

If you limit that to domestic (American) wines then your argument has merit IMO.

However, if you’re talking wines from all over the planet there’s WAY too many excellent varietals and Domaines that have centuries more experience and talent than most US Cabernet producers. Even if you’re including Bordeaux as Cab, you’d get arguments from the Italy and Burgundy lovers.

[Ed_Steinway]

Joe:

One question you asked is whether or not the Cabs that you are buying today will still be good 5, 10 and 20 years from now. One additional consideration is that your palate may also change in that time frame and you may find these wines less appealing over time.

I still buy some of the wines that I believe you are referring to, but a modest cellar, two college students under my roof and price increases have caused me to step back. The bottom line is that you and only you can decide if you are paying too much. Use the principle of substitution to decide if it is worth it for you.

Great question and there are a lot of excellent responses here!

Thanks,
Ed