Any Experts on Old Alsatian Wine?

[scott c l a f f e e]

I just received my mystery 3-pack from Garagiste's "German Cellar" offer. It has one German Riesling, an Alsatian Muscat, and what appears to be an unlabeled Alsatian Beerenauslese from an unidentified varietal. Can anyone tell me what I have here?

[Roberto Rogness (Online)]

Not sure on that wine but wouldn't the commercial sale of an unlabeled wine (also with no importers strip and surgeon general's warning) be illegal?

[Henry Kiichli]

As far as I can tell, the third bottle is labeled "Osterreich". I'll hazard a guess at Austrian (Österreich).

[scott c l a f f e e]

As far as I can tell, the third bottle is labeled "Osterreich". I'll hazard a guess at Austrian (Österreich).

Good call. Not sure how I missed that.

[Isaac James Baker]

As far as I can tell, the third bottle is labeled "Osterreich". I'll hazard a guess at Austrian (Österreich).

Good call. Not sure how I missed that.

That's what I was thinking. This is a pretty interesting little 3-pack. Post notes when you taste them. Sounds like it'll be a fun experience.

[scott c l a f f e e]

Well look at this -- an actual tasting note (in French) on the Hugel:

http://www.oenoalsace.com/index.php?opt ... &Itemid=26

Via Google translate:

Exceptional Reserve Muscat 1967 - Hugel et Fils (Riquewihr)
The year 1967 was a very good vintage, wet and cold spring followed by a hot and dry summer. The September rain resulted departures rot, precipitating the start of the harvest on October 9. Reported average yield of the region 81hl/ha. The Gewurztraminers are particularly well this year, as the wines of the hill. 1967 Hugel Muscat is a late harvest produced the marly limestone soil with gypsum Grand Cru Schoenenbourg, a great wine with powerful minerality. The nose is fresh, with notes of cassis, raspberry, dried mint leaves and a hint of smoke. The mouth is rich, mineral complex and an incredible youth. The soil is revealed in the long finish. A remarkable wine that we tasted at the table in October 2008 to the delight of the participants. Hugel ripped Muscats du Schoenenbourg in 1973 and replanted in 2005, announcing a future muscat Jubilee. Excellent.

[rachel mcdonald]

Wait, you bought a mystery three pack of a "German Cellar" and you got one bottle from Germany, one bottle from Alsace, and one bottle from Austria? Are they geography challenged or are they using a map from World War II? I guess it's nice that they decided to include at least one bottle from Germany.

[Roberto Rogness (Online)]

I wonder if Alto Adige would also count in that selection?

[Henry Kiichli]

Aha!

Then so.

[Theodore Anderson]

Actually it looks like the lighter print on the diagonal says "Exceptionnelle"

[Harry Gruber]

Wait, you bought a mystery three pack of a "German Cellar" and you got one bottle from Germany, one bottle from Alsace, and one bottle from Austria? Are they geography challenged or are they using a map from World War II? I guess it's nice that they decided to include at least one bottle from Germany.

It's a case of "German exceptionalism."

[scott c l a f f e e]

Wait, you bought a mystery three pack of a "German Cellar" and you got one bottle from Germany, one bottle from Alsace, and one bottle from Austria? Are they geography challenged or are they using a map from World War II? I guess it's nice that they decided to include at least one bottle from Germany.

I think the email said the collector was German, not all the wine.

[Henry Kiichli]

well, I have a German cellar, and it is overwhelmingly French.

[rachel mcdonald]

Wait, you bought a mystery three pack of a "German Cellar" and you got one bottle from Germany, one bottle from Alsace, and one bottle from Austria? Are they geography challenged or are they using a map from World War II? I guess it's nice that they decided to include at least one bottle from Germany.

I think the email said the collector was German, not all the wine.

Fair enough.

[Thor Iverson]

A caution on the muscat: late-harvest muscat is the most difficult of all the late-harvest Alsatian varieties (even sylvaner is more amenable), and it can turn stewed and vegetal even in the best cases. Very, very few people even ever try it. So this is a bit of a rarity, though it's seen more often in these days of a much warmer climate.

I haven't had the '67 Hugel, but I've had some from the early '70s, and mostly they didn't exactly reward aging. They weren't dead, but they tasted like slightly fragrant, slightly dilute riesling of considerable age. Expect that and you may be rewarded. Or not. At this age, it's really up in the air.

[Eric Ifune]

Thor,
Nice to see you here.

[TomHill]

A caution on the muscat: late-harvest muscat is the most difficult of all the late-harvest Alsatian varieties (even sylvaner is more amenable), and it can turn stewed and vegetal even in the best cases. Very, very few people even ever try it. So this is a bit of a rarity, though it's seen more often in these days of a much warmer climate.

I haven't had the '67 Hugel, but I've had some from the early '70s, and mostly they didn't exactly reward aging. They weren't dead, but they tasted like slightly fragrant, slightly dilute riesling of considerable age. Expect that and you may be rewarded. Or not. At this age, it's really up in the air.

Holy $hit....it's Thor. Good to see you out here in CyberSpace again, Thor. We've missed you the last few yrs!!!
I would tend to agree w/ you on the LateHrvst Alsatian Muscats....they don't, as a rule, seem to age all that well.
It's pretty much a crap-shoot on this '67.

Tom

[Dale Williams]

I love trying unusual older wines, and hope you have some fun experiences. But I just searched Garagiste Mystery German, and found a Snooth thread saying these were $268/3 pack. I find that very expensive for what look like "fun to experiment if cheap" wines.
So we have an Austrian BA (unknown producer, unknown grape)from a vintage where the Austrian Wine Board says no botrytis.
An old Hugel Muscat
Is there a producer in small print on the '66 Mosel? What is the word after vineyard- Nabor? Natur ? Any indication it's Riesling? I know these things weren't so standardized pre-1971.
Anyway, I love his request to "not send these to auction"
Hope they turn out to be good.

[scott c l a f f e e]

I love trying unusual older wines, and hope you have some fun experiences. But I just searched Garagiste Mystery German, and found a Snooth thread saying these were $268/3 pack. I find that very expensive for what look like "fun to experiment if cheap" wines.
So we have an Austrian BA (unknown producer, unknown grape)from a vintage where the Austrian Wine Board says no botrytis.
An old Hugel Muscat
Is there a producer in small print on the '66 Mosel? What is the word after vineyard- Nabor? Natur ? Any indication it's Riesling? I know these things weren't so standardized pre-1971.
Anyway, I love his request to "not send these to auction"
Hope they turn out to be good.

Thanks. Yes, it was a somewhat costly gamble, but I like adventure. The Riesling is from a producer named Schweiszthal, and it is labeled "Natur," which was the predecessor to the term Kabinett (roughly speaking).

[greg gartland]

my three pack is below; one riesling, two gewurztraminer. the Schloss Vollrads has some seepage which appears recent. so that is annoying. Anyway, since two are from Alsace, sticking it here.

[K_F_o_l_e_y]

As posted in the Great Enabler thread:

I got mine Tuesday and opened it today:

1985 Hugel et Fils Gewurztraminer Hugel Cuvee Tradition
1978 Hugel et Fils Gewurztraminer Hugel Cuvee Tradition
1969 Schloss Reinhartshausen (no other identification, so I've no idea what it is other than it is an SR)

Conditions are good with high fills, some capsule corrosion and the '69's label fell off in the box (has an English importer label on the back, like one of the photos in the other thread).

Mediocre and off vintages of Hugel Gewürztraminer that are likely over the hill, and a mystery German. This is NOT worth $268 + shipping.

I had previously sworn off Garagiste for good, and now I REALLY mean it!

[Kris Patten]

As posted in the Great Enabler thread:

I got mine Tuesday and opened it today:

1985 Hugel et Fils Gewurztraminer Hugel Cuvee Tradition
1978 Hugel et Fils Gewurztraminer Hugel Cuvee Tradition
1969 Schloss Reinhartshausen (no other identification, so I've no idea what it is other than it is an SR)

Conditions are good with high fills, some capsule corrosion and the '69's label fell off in the box (has an English importer label on the back, like one of the photos in the other thread).

Mediocre and off vintages of Hugel Gewürztraminer that are likely over the hill, and a mystery German. This is NOT worth $268 + shipping.

I had previously sworn off Garagiste for good, and now I REALLY mean it!

You haven't even tried them yet. At $85 a bottle you might be surprised. At $150 a bottle I could understand the premature disappointment.

[Jim Van Pelt]

quote="Kris Patten"]
You haven't even tried them yet. At $85 a bottle you might be surprised. At $150 a bottle I could understand the premature disappointment.[/quote]

For me, I got these:

german wines.JPG (25.71 KiB) Viewed 1337 times

And Kris, your point is valid. I haven't tried these either. But here's why I have a bit of buyer's remorse. Rimmerman said this:

"With bottles dating back to 1864....."

"the deepest part of the collection from 1930-1976"

"The bonus is that the family spent several decades collecting Alsatian wine as well – most from the late 1950’s through the early 1970’s"

So I get 3 mid-70's wines, one without any label or indication of producer. $85/btl, and you can't even tell me who the producer is????? And, of the pictures I've seen, most bottles are '70's, one or two from the '60's. Where are the '30's, 40's, 50's???

This is a reminder to me that one has to read a Rimmerman email VERY carefully. The deepest part of this collection may in fact be from 1930-1976. But the deepest part of that group is apparently from the mid to late 70's. And seemingly, the deepest part of the offering is not from Germany, if the 3 data points above are indicative. Alsace and Austria are more highly represented.

Might these bottles be great? Could be...time will tell. I'm sure they might be interesting enough. Perhaps great. But they are not representative of what I thought I had a chance at. And that's easy enough for me to write-off...."I guess my random pick didn't work out". But when I see the contents of others 3 packs, I see a pattern developing. One that seems inconsistent with what I was led to believe. But that's on me. At this point, my "Rimmerman decoder ring" should be more finely tuned.

[Henry Kiichli]

I find this thread fascinating.

Over here, people are cleaning out their cellars all the time, and eBay is full of offers:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/7x-0-7l-Weiswein ... 19d671b10e

http://www.ebay.de/itm/7x-0-7-diverse-W ... 19d671b58b

http://www.ebay.de/itm/110-Flaschen-Mos ... 43b5639ac5

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Alte-Weine-ab-19 ... 2c69a0cff4

Many times, the end price is no more than €2/Bottle, but you have to pick it up - no shipping.

Am I missing my great chance to make a killing in a niche market?

[K_F_o_l_e_y]

You haven't even tried them yet. At $85 a bottle you might be surprised. At $150 a bottle I could understand the premature disappointment.

Counting shipping, at a $100 a bottle that SR had better be an amazing wine (whatever is in it). Of the selections posted so far, I appear to have the worst. At least you guys got more Rieslings.

Has anyone ever tried any old Gewürztraminers?

[jeff g]

I haven't tried any ancient Gewurtztraminers, but I guess I will soon. To add a data point:

1967 Hugel Reserve Exceptionelle Auslese Riesling - leaked a fair bit in shipping*
1976 Hugel Reserve Personelle Gewurtztraminer
1975 Rheinessen Steinberger Riesling Kabinett

Garagiste are replacing the leaking bottle, which is appreciated. Like posters above, I was sad to see that from a German Cellar "deepest from 1930-1976," and going from "dry to kabinett to beerenauslese to eiswine" , I ended up with mostly French wines, and mostly wines from the 70s.

* I really don't think this is any fault of Garagiste's. With a giant stack of old wine, I expect some things to go wrong.

[Keith Levenberg]

Blind tasting can be fun - blind buying never is. I'd be royally disappointed if I bought in this offer and got some of the wines people are mentioning. I'd suggest sending them to auction, but I doubt you'd recoup much.

[Dale Williams]

(snip)Mediocre and off vintages of Hugel Gewürztraminer that are likely over the hill, and a mystery German. This is NOT worth $268 + shipping.
I had previously sworn off Garagiste for good, and now I REALLY mean it!

You haven't even tried them yet. At $85 a bottle you might be surprised. At $150 a bottle I could understand the premature disappointment.

While obviously one can't be disappointed in the wineuntil trying, I'd be disappointed in the deal at these prices- not sure any of wines listed would fly off a retailer's shelf at $85. In last few years I've bought Hugel Gew. VTs from good 80s vintages for $30 at winebid, 76 Rheingau Auslese from unheralded producers for $20 for Cellaraiders, etc. Would anyone here pay $40 for an unlabeled bottle of '77 Austrian BA (though I'm confident that's what it is, who would lie re that??).

[Todd Laubach]

I also bit on these after swearing off mystery wines.....This is what I received and I have not looked them up but I think this will end up as the worst wine purchase in history in terms of value for what I ended up with. The first two wines look like they are basic level wines and the last wine, well I have not a frigin clue.

1977 Hugel Muscat Cuvee Tradition
1985 Hugel Gewurz Cuvee Tradition
1966 Van der Smit Urziger Wurzgarten Natur

[Mont Stern]

1975 Hugel Gewürztraminer Tradition
1978 Wieingut Wintrich Kestener Paulinsberg Spatlese
1961 Arthur Hallgarten Bernkasteler Pfaltzgraben und Badstube Spatlese Eiswein


If the 1961 is excellent, I don't care about others.

[Doug Schulman]

Has anyone ever tried any old Gewürztraminers?

I've had a couple in the 20-30 year old range that have been amazing.

[Dale Williams]

Has anyone ever tried any old Gewürztraminers?

I've had a couple in the 20-30 year old range that have been amazing.

I've had a stunning '83 ZH VT (single vineyard, can't remember which- Goldert or Hengst) , on dryish side have enjoyed '85 Trimbach SdR (though definitely drink up time) and 89 ZH Herr. d. Turck. Not thought much of the few 70s Gewurz I've had, but sample is small. Lower acid grape, so not obvious ager. But sure that it's possible to age well.

Obviously the few people who have posted here might not be a representative sample. Maybe someone got a '59 TBA from an acclaimed producer. But while I am a fan of experimentation and a fan of Riesling (and to a lesser extent Gewurz), I haven't seen a single bottle listed here or on the Great Enabler thread that I would have considered spending say $60 for. A couple good vintages, but with exception of Hugel these seem to be mostly unknown producers, or importer's brands (I thought this according to this thread a cellar from Germany, but aren't many of these importers-Hallgarten Selections etc- to England?). Most of the wines are from less regarded vintages, and/or base level/QbA bottlings.

Pre-71, I guess not a lot of regulation, but I'm curious to know what a Spatlese Eiswein tastes like, seems counterintuitive to me.

I truly hope all or at least some of the bottles are stunning. But the discrepancy between what is hinted at and what is delivered seems extreme. I thought idea of "mystery packages" was that retailer quickly moved a bunch of stuff, but at lower prices than if they were more patient. This looks more like double the price, on stuff that would sit around for years.

[Mont Stern]

[/quote]
Pre-71, I guess not a lot of regulation, but I'm curious to know what a Spatlese Eiswein tastes like, seems counterintuitive to me.
I[/quote]

I am really curious. The bottle sataes that it was estate bottled by the grower for Hallgarten.

It was awarded a Goldenen Kammerpreismunze (Gold Medal) for the region and a Staatsehrenpreis.

Enough to make it a likely interesting bottle to me unles the provenance is not as stated. In general, I have found gold medal winners in Germany from the 50's -70's to be stunning if the provenance is any good. I have been a little lax in posting recently but I won't omit this for better or worse.

[Todd Tucker]

Wow,

There was quite a margin on these, unless I missed out on the person who got the 59 JJ Prum W-S feintse Auslese 3 pack.

[Thor Iverson]

I've had quite a bit of older Alsatian gewurztraminer, but "older" here hardly ever refers to more than twenty years, as only the most brilliant-sited and acid-retaining gewurztraminer would possibly reward that much aging. So: Beyer, Trimbach, pre-Olivier Zind-Humbrecht, pre-decline Hugel, etc. Names everyone knows. I'd even be hesitant about VT and SGN version of the grape after that much time, though those are usually a safer bet, and can come from a slightly wider group of producers.

The wines I'm seeing here, though, are (as noted) mostly basic bottlings, and while I wouldn't discount the possibility that they've held in some sort of fashion, I wouldn't bet more than a few dollars on it. I don't like saying this about wines that people have spent a good deal more on, but if they're still interesting it'd almost be a miracle. So, for example, that '85 Hugel: I agree with Dale that even proven agers from other producers and much better sites are in decline now, and that bottle is neither. It could still be OK, but it's pretty much the only one I'd have even a glimmer of hope for.

Sorry.