RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine
User avatar
John Morris
SubscriberSubscriber
 
Posts: 12731
Joined: June 21st 2009, 2:09pm
Location: New York City

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8201  Postby John Morris » January 24th 2017, 5:29pm

R. Smith wrote:I pulled their license info and it looks like Jeff Sokolin still owns Royal.

License Information
Serial Number: 1225709
License Type: LIQUOR STORE
License Status: License is Active
Credit Group: 1
Filing Date: 05/14/2009
Effective Date: 10/01/2014
Expiration Date: 09/30/2017

Premises Information
Principal's Name: SOKOLIN, JEFFREY
Premises Name: ROYAL WINE MERCHANTS LTD
Trade Name:
Zone: 1
Address: 13 SOUTH WILLIAM STREET

NEW YORK, NY 10004
County: NEW YORK


I don't know why I thought it had been sold and Sokolin had opened another store. I was Googling today to try to confirm that and found nothing. My apologies for the bad info.

Don Cornwell posted the settlement terms, which bar Sokolin from selling anything older than the 1975 vintage.
"In the long story of civilization, the moments when improving your lot beats out annoying your neighbor are vanishingly rare." – Adam Gopnik, 2012

"Here is the land of mirth, as Germany is the land of metaphysics and France is the land of fornication. Here the buffoonery never stops." – H.L. Mencken, 1922

Advertisement

User avatar
Victor Hong
 
Posts: 10671
Joined: May 30th 2009, 1:34pm

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8202  Postby Victor Hong » January 24th 2017, 6:14pm

Startling around 1997, Royal began to fax me daily with offerings of purported old Bordeaux. So, I stopped by the store at Waterside Plaza. The front area sold lotto tickets and little plastic bottles of Georgi Vodka. The back area was literally a jumble of ostensibly rare Bordeaux, from 1899, 1929, 1947, 1953, 1955, and onward. Why would anyone scatter bottles of 1899 Latour and 1929 d;Yquem on a bare and dirty floor, I could not understand.

I smelled a rat, and left.

And you wonder how I smelled the oncoming 1998 global credit crash and the current, ongoing Financial Crisis........
WineHunter.
User avatar
Don Cornwell
 
Posts: 1449
Joined: June 10th 2010, 1:24am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8203  Postby Don Cornwell » January 24th 2017, 11:07pm

J a y H a c k wrote:I've been buying Scotch from Park Avenue Liquors for 40 years or so - since they were actually on Park Avenue. They were always honorable and I never had an issue with them. On the other hand, I think I've only bought one bottle of wine from them, so who knows?

Jay:

Unfortunately, I have received multiple reports of allegedly counterfeit wines being sold by Park Avenue Liquors. The reports included full cases of allegedly counterfeit 1959 Henri Jayer wines sold to two different individuals and a purported full case of 1950 Pomerols for which the glass didn't match. Park Avenue eventually issued refunds on these bottles, but only after a major hassle. As also reported earlier in this thread concerning the Koch v. Royal Wine Merchants case, the evidence in that case showed that Park Avenue had purchased counterfeit wines from Royal Wine Merchants, which were later returned by Park Avenue for a refund.

I also reported earlier in this thread that CBS’ Inside Edition ran a story in November of 2012 about counterfeit wines. One of the featured vignettes in the program concerned Park Avenue, which sold s representative of CBS a 1953 Petrus for $3,400 which both Maureen Downey and Geoff Troy said was unquestionably counterfeit. You will find the print version of the story here. http://www.insideedition.com/investigative/5338-counterfeit-wine In the televised version of the story (featuring Lisa Guerrero) they showed the salesman at Park Avenue on a hidden camera repeatedly insisting that the wine was authentic before the sale. After the purchase, and the inspection by Maureen and Geoff, Park Avenue owner Michael Goldstein attempted to defend the bottle as authentic. When told that the experts retained by CBS insisted it was fake, Mr. Goldstein responded "That's their opinion." But when Inside Edition pointed out the inconsistencies raised by Maureen and Geoff, he quickly offered a refund which Inside Edition accepted. [Note I had posted the link to the Inside Edition video originally, but it is no longer active on the web. Now a portion of the video is on You Tube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhTK8tfU9lo ]
Don Cornwell
Oxidized Burgs Wiki
User avatar
Maureen Downey
 
Posts: 288
Joined: November 19th 2009, 1:42pm
Location: San Francisco/London/Asia

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8204  Postby Maureen Downey » January 25th 2017, 8:58am

Todd F r e n c h wrote:Folks, apparently there are some inaccuracies on that list, shop names that were later removed - please amend it


What is inaccurate?
Here was the question she sent, and my answer:

8. Can you provide us with a list of retailers and auction houses that we should currently avoid?
    Acker Merrall & Condit Auctions & Retail, New York City
    Acker Merrall & Condit Asia, Hong Kong
    Dragon 8 Wine Auctions/Retail Hong Kong
    Baghera Wine Auctions, Geneva
    Eric Pillon Auctions, Versailles

    Antique Wine Company, AWC Fine Wine, Hong Kong & London
    AWC Fine Wine Philippines
    Madison Wines, Hong Kong
    VIA Wines, Shanghai

    Vanquish Wines, London
    RichFineWine, London
    Cep'Age, Bordeaux
    C'mon Vin, Paris
    Weinart, Denmark
    RareWinesDK, Denmark
    Jarhundertweine, Wartenberg, Germany
    Noble Wines, Rome
    Vini Rari, Trieste

    Soutirage, Napa Valley
    Park Avenue Liquor, New York City
    Cellar Advisors and Domaine Wine Storage, NY, St Louis, Napa, Chicago, DC
    Courtier Wines, Oakland, CA
    Skyiner Fine Wines, Napa, CA & WA
    VinBrucke LLC, Napa Valley, CA
    TK Wines, Torrance, CA
    Clarets, Buellton, CA
    Oakwood Advisors, New York City
    Royal Wine Merchants, New York City
#ChaiVault, WineFraud.com
User avatar
andy velebil
 
Posts: 6018
Joined: February 2nd 2009, 5:54pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8205  Postby andy velebil » January 25th 2017, 12:03pm

Maureen Downey wrote:
Todd F r e n c h wrote:Folks, apparently there are some inaccuracies on that list, shop names that were later removed - please amend it


What is inaccurate?
Here was the question she sent, and my answer:

8. Can you provide us with a list of retailers and auction houses that we should currently avoid?
    Acker Merrall & Condit Auctions & Retail, New York City
    Acker Merrall & Condit Asia, Hong Kong
    Dragon 8 Wine Auctions/Retail Hong Kong
    Baghera Wine Auctions, Geneva
    Eric Pillon Auctions, Versailles

    Antique Wine Company, AWC Fine Wine, Hong Kong & London
    AWC Fine Wine Philippines
    Madison Wines, Hong Kong
    VIA Wines, Shanghai

    Vanquish Wines, London
    RichFineWine, London
    Cep'Age, Bordeaux
    C'mon Vin, Paris
    Weinart, Denmark
    RareWinesDK, Denmark
    Jarhundertweine, Wartenberg, Germany
    Noble Wines, Rome
    Vini Rari, Trieste

    Soutirage, Napa Valley
    Park Avenue Liquor, New York City
    Cellar Advisors and Domaine Wine Storage, NY, St Louis, Napa, Chicago, DC
    Courtier Wines, Oakland, CA
    Skyiner Fine Wines, Napa, CA & WA
    VinBrucke LLC, Napa Valley, CA
    TK Wines, Torrance, CA
    Clarets, Buellton, CA
    Oakwood Advisors, New York City
    Royal Wine Merchants, New York City

I would guess that someone on that list sent Todd an email. One would assume they aren't happy to be on that list. Just speculation....
I'm a Port drinking fool!
User avatar
Howard Cooper
SubscriberSubscriber
 
Posts: 12825
Joined: May 30th 2009, 8:37am
Location: Rockville, MD

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8206  Postby Howard Cooper » January 26th 2017, 5:34pm

Nowell Karten wrote:Here's a good, little article by Jeannie Cho Lee about fake wine and Maureen Downey's perspectives, in advance of Maureen's upcoming wine authentication training classes in Hong Kong:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeanniechol ... 46e35e1705
Maureen bravely lists the retailers and auction houses she believes should be avoided, including several California vendors about whom I'd not heard:

Acker Merrall & Condit Auctions & Retail, New York City
Acker Merrall & Condit Asia, Hong Kong
Dragon 8 Wine Auctions/Retail, Hong Kong
Baghera Wine Auctions, Geneva
Eric Pillon Auctions, Versailles
AWC Fine Wine, Philippines
Madison Wines, Hong Kong
VIA Wines, Shanghai
Vanquish Wines, London
RichFineWine, London
Cep'Age, Bordeaux
C'mon Vin, Paris
Weinart, Denmark
RareWinesDK, Denmark
Jarhundertweine, Wartenberg, Germany
Noble Wines, Rome
Vini Rari, Trieste
Soutirage, Napa Valley
Park Avenue Liquor, New York City
Cellar Advisors and Domaine Wine Storage, NY, St Louis, Napa, Chicago, DC
Courtier Wines, Oakland, CA
Skyiner Fine Wines, Napa, CA & WA
VinBrucke LLC, Napa Valley, CA
TK Wines, Torrance, CA
Clarets, Buellton, CA
Oakwood Advisors, New York City
Royal Wine Merchants, New York City


Thank you and Maureen
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister
User avatar
Don Cornwell
 
Posts: 1449
Joined: June 10th 2010, 1:24am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8207  Postby Don Cornwell » January 26th 2017, 9:12pm

THE ITALIAN DRC COUNTERFEITING RING FINALLY COMES TO TRIAL

In September of 2012 I spotted a new breed of fake DRC wines being offered by a rare wine dealer in Italy. These counterfeits were for the most part exceptionally well done; there were only two small defects that I was able to find after hours of effort. However, those defects were duplicated time and again over the many vintages being offered

I immediately reported the problem to DRC and wrote to the rare wine dealer in Italy telling them that the wines were clearly fake and could not be sold. The rare wine dealer, who had begun selling DRC wines only a few months before, was honorable and agreed to pull the wines from sale while DRC investigated the matter. The rare wine dealer cooperated with DRC (albeit a bit slowly and reluctantly) while we continued to investigate the matter. Eventually the rare wine dealer told DRC their source for the wines (another wine broker in Italy), but only after they successfully returned the wines and got a refund of their purchase money. The Itailian wine broker wasn't so lucky in getting a refund. DRC filed a criminal complaint in France with the French Gendarmerie, and the Italian broker filed a criminal complaint in Italy. The two police agencies referred the matter to Europol and Eurojust, the European police and justice agencies.

On October 16, 2013, as previously reported in this thread, a series of raids and seizures were made in multiple countries and seven individuals arrested, including a father-son team of wine merchants based in Italy who had allegedly produced the counterfeits. http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1280480#p1280480 See also my follow-up post of October 25, 2013: http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1456045#p1456045 In May of 2014, a gentleman of Russian national origin, who lived in Milan and was said to be the principal manager of the counterfeiting ring, was arrested at a hotel in Meursault when he arrived for an expected business meeting. See http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1456045#p1456045

The Italian father-son duo and the alleged Russian manager of the counterfeiting operation are now finally on trial in the criminal court in Dijon France. They are charged with selling more than 400 counterfeit bottles of DRC wines and Leroy Musigny between 2012 and 2014. The trial began on Wednesday January 24. Here is a link to an article published on the French website Terre de Vins reporting on the beginning of the trial. http://www.terredevins.com/actualites/fausses-bouteilles-de-romanee-conti-trois-hommes-juges-a-dijon/

The names of the Italian defendants are Enzio and Nicola Lucca. According to the French article concerning the trial, at the time they were arrested, police found counterfeit DRC labels and empty wood cases bearing the DRC labeling at their homes. The Italian government ultimately declined to extradite them to France. According to the same article, they were subsequently convicted of selling counterfeit DRC wines in Switzerland and were sentenced to suspended sentences of 24 months each, a 5,000 Swiss Franc fine and were required to pay 1 million Euros as damages to DRC. It is not clear how they ended up in France to face a criminal trial.

The Russian defendant, Aleksandr Iugov, apparently claims that he has no connection with the Italian counterfeiting ring.

UPDATE (January 27, 2017):

The London Times published an article today which gives more details http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/wine-buffs-hoodwinked-by-fake-label-rncm5trlw According to the Times, Aleksandr Iugov, 32, who is Russian, has plead not guilty. Quoting from the Times article: "He said he had been given the Romanée-Conti labels by his employer, at whose behest he had stuck them on other wines." Iugov claims that the fraud was uncovered after bottles were sent to auction in France in 2012.

Quoting from the Times article: "Enzio and Nicola Lucca are not present in court. They claim that because a Swiss court gave them each a two-year suspended prison sentence in 2015 and ordered them to pay Romanée-Conti compensation of €1 million, they should not be tried again for the same offence in France."
Don Cornwell
Oxidized Burgs Wiki
User avatar
Don Cornwell
 
Posts: 1449
Joined: June 10th 2010, 1:24am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8208  Postby Don Cornwell » January 29th 2017, 7:23pm

MORE INFORMATION ON THE TRIAL OF THE MEMBERS OF THE DRC ITALIAN COUNTERFEITING RING

The criminal trial in Dijon was completed, and Aleksandr Iugov was convicted. However, the Judge indicated that the sentence will not be announced until April. At this point I am still uncertain as to what happened to Enzio and Nicola Lucca, the father and son wine merchants from Italy who Italy initially refused to extradite in response to French and Europol arrest warrants.

Aleksandr Iugov, the convicted defendant, used the alias "Alexander Anikin." As noted previously, he was arrested in Meursault on Sunday May 4, 2014. According to DRC, Anikin was in prison in France for more than one and a half years awaiting trial. He presently remains under some type of modified house arrest in Burgundy pending the announcement of sentence in April. He is free to travel locally, but he must report to the police every day.

Prior to his arrest in Meursault, Alexander Anikin operated from Moscow and Milan Italy as a seller of old and rare wines. He specialized in selling counterfeit DRC wines, including the older counterfeits Romanee Contis that I first saw in late 2012 and DRC from recent vintages, including 2005.

While I was not aware of his involvement at the time, Alexander Anikin was apparently one of the principals of Arcum Wines in Switzerland (along with Roberto Chiaradia) beginning in 2008 or 2009. Arcum went bankrupt in January of 2014 and apparently had claims against them at the time they filed for bankruptcy based on the sale of counterfeit wines and failing to deliver on wine futures orders. I am also informed that Arcum was also the alleged source of several of the "White Club" counterfeit bottles. I began seeing wines offered by Arcum in 2009-2010 email offerings which appeared to be counterfeit I would periodically send emails asking for information or better photographs of these bottles. Most of the time, my emails were simply ignored. (And this was long before this thread started and my interest in combating wine counterfeiting became publicly known.) When Arcum did respond, the information provided was generally not useful or truly responsive to what I asked about. They soon removed me from their email distribution list.

Image

This photo is from a wine tasting held in Moscow in July 2009. Here is the link to an article from Passport magazine. http://www.passportmagazine.ru/article/1603/ Anikin is listed as “Alex Anikin, Arcum Wines.”

Alexander Anikin also had a Twitter page listing him as a Moscow Rare Wine Merchant and entrepreneur as of 2011. The page was last updated in April 2011. https://twitter.com/s_anikin Here is the photo from that Twitter page:

Image

By 2012, Alexander Anikin was operating and selling old and rare wine from Milan, including counterfeit DRC and ultra rare wines like Leroy Musigny. Here is a photo of counterfeit DRC Romanee Conti from the 2005 and 2006 vintages which were sold by Anikin and purchased by a US trade purchaser. The purchaser placed the marks on the bottles so that they could not be resold.

Image

For Aleksandr Iugov a/k/a Alexander Anikin the party ended when he walked into the hotel in Meursault on May 4, 2014 expecting to meet a client. Instead he found officers from the French gendarmerie waiting to arrest him. The French police officer responsible for Anikin's arrest once described him to me as the "Russian Dr. Conti."
Last edited by Don Cornwell on May 18th 2017, 12:44pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don Cornwell
Oxidized Burgs Wiki
User avatar
François Audouze
 
Posts: 931
Joined: July 26th 2010, 2:49am
Location: near Paris (picture : Tokay 1819 not Hungarian drunk in May 2010)

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8209  Postby François Audouze » January 30th 2017, 4:55am

I am amazed by the quality of these fakes. It is so well made that anyone would be fooled !!!
Incredible.
Kind regards

François Audouze
User avatar
andy velebil
 
Posts: 6018
Joined: February 2nd 2009, 5:54pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8210  Postby andy velebil » January 30th 2017, 8:27am

Don
Thanks for the update.
I'm a Port drinking fool!
User avatar
Don Cornwell
 
Posts: 1449
Joined: June 10th 2010, 1:24am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8211  Postby Don Cornwell » January 30th 2017, 12:49pm

François Audouze wrote:I am amazed by the quality of these fakes. It is so well made that anyone would be fooled !!!
Incredible.

Yes Francois. The professional counterfeiters have gotten quite sophisticated -- duplicating the capsules, much better labels than Rudy did, etc. I think you see why the new European DRC counterfeiting rings have been pretty scary for the Domaine and those of us that look for fakes.

The Domaine has instituted a lot of special security measures in the past few years, but it is a running battle trying to stay ahead of the increasing sophistication of the counterfeiters.

To be honest, the governments and the police in Europe have to start taking this crime much more seriously because the counterfeiters easily (and perhaps deliberately) cross the EU borders in their operations, but the police agencies in each country seem unable or unwilling to cooperate with their fellow EU members to enforce these laws. One of the many things that amazes me about how this case was handled was that the Italian government refused to extradite the father-son team in Italy that was producing at least some portion of the DRC counterfeits.
Don Cornwell
Oxidized Burgs Wiki
User avatar
Soren R Nielsen
 
Posts: 694
Joined: March 17th 2016, 8:48am
Location: On, in Copenhagen, Denmark

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8212  Postby Soren R Nielsen » March 23rd 2017, 9:15am

Acker Auction, Sat, Mar 25, 2017, Grant Hyatt, Hong Kong.
Here We go again!
Any comments on this 1967 DRC La Tache? (bottom left)
Please note the capsule. It should not be named "La Tache", but instead "Mise du Domaine".
-And the main label has the dark-green non-centered "Appellation La Tache Controlee" (drifted to the right).
I No Like !
1967 La Tache, label and capsule issues.jpg
1967 La Tache, label and capsule issues.jpg (30.85 KiB) Viewed 7876 times


Also unusual to see, is the 1960 bottle with the long capsule, and a(degraded?) Leroy label just above the main label. -Not seen that so early before.?

To get the full catalog with better resolution on pics :
https://www.ackerwines.com/UpcomingAuctions

Many DRC and other expensive stuff but only very few photos, and still they cock-up... So sad.

-Søren.
User avatar
Ross Massey
 
Posts: 347
Joined: November 28th 2011, 8:04pm
Location: New York City

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8213  Postby Ross Massey » March 23rd 2017, 11:15am

Søren,

There is also a 1949 DRC RSV from Marey-Monge. Funny because they didn't lease those vineyards until 1966.
IG: @rmasseynyc
User avatar
Soren R Nielsen
 
Posts: 694
Joined: March 17th 2016, 8:48am
Location: On, in Copenhagen, Denmark

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8214  Postby Soren R Nielsen » March 23rd 2017, 11:38am

Ross Massey wrote:Søren,

There is also a 1949 DRC RSV from Marey-Monge. Funny because they didn't lease those vineyards until 1966.


Lot number?

EDIT: I found the 1949, no photo, only short text, on the next live Acker auction, New York, Sat, Apr 8, 2017
-And that's also an interesting catalog, with many "special" DRCs and other old burgs.
I already found some lots that needs some good explanations... [scratch.gif]

-Søren.
Last edited by Soren R Nielsen on March 23rd 2017, 11:55am, edited 1 time in total.
R.Oesterle
SubscriberSubscriber
 
Posts: 881
Joined: June 14th 2010, 11:18am

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8215  Postby R.Oesterle » March 23rd 2017, 11:50am

"all week" you can find in so many auctionhouses around the world "interesting" DRC bottles(one minute on Google search)
https://www.schulerauktionen.ch/de/item ... anee-conti

http://www.cornettedesaintcyr.fr/html/f ... 2&aff=1&r=
Roman
°°°°°°
User avatar
Don Cornwell
 
Posts: 1449
Joined: June 10th 2010, 1:24am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8216  Postby Don Cornwell » March 23rd 2017, 10:07pm

Soren R Nielsen wrote:Acker Auction, Sat, Mar 25, 2017, Grant Hyatt, Hong Kong.
Here We go again!
Any comments on this 1967 DRC La Tache? (bottom left)
Please note the capsule. It should not be named "La Tache", but instead "Mise du Domaine".
-And the main label has the dark-green non-centered "Appellation La Tache Controlee" (drifted to the right).
I No Like !
1967 La Tache, label and capsule issues.jpg


Also unusual to see, is the 1960 bottle with the long capsule, and a(degraded?) Leroy label just above the main label. -Not seen that so early before.?

To get the full catalog with better resolution on pics :
https://www.ackerwines.com/UpcomingAuctions

Many DRC and other expensive stuff but only very few photos, and still they cock-up... So sad.

-Søren.


Soren:

I agree with you on both bottles. .

Image Image
Cropped photo of the 1960 and 1967 La Tache from the Acker Hong Kong catalog - - - 1967 La Tache sold by K&L auction

1967 La Tache should have a Mise Du Domaine capsule. The only way it could have a vineyard-branded capsule is if it was re-corked at the Domaine after 1977 or was a very late release from the Domaine (in which case it sure shouldn't have the low fill level.) nd it would have had the missing neck label too. I also agree that the Appellation Controlee line is printed way off center and DRC didn't do that. I aiso don't like the color of the green, at least as it appears on this photo. Doesn't match the others I have. There are certainly more lucrative vintages to fake, but this one is clearly presumptively fake.

On the 1960 La Tache, I agree with you that the capsule appears to be too long for a 1960 bottling. It also has bright white print, but should not for a 1960 capsule, which was the light gray color printing. The main label again would merit closer examination because the color of the AOC line doesn't appear correct (but it could be the photo.) Absent an explanation for the pristine looking, too long and incorrect print color capsule, this too I would have to say is presmumptively fake.

Here's a 1960 La Tache from a relatively recent Christie's auction
Image

Good job Soren.
Don Cornwell
Oxidized Burgs Wiki
User avatar
Soren R Nielsen
 
Posts: 694
Joined: March 17th 2016, 8:48am
Location: On, in Copenhagen, Denmark

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8217  Postby Soren R Nielsen » March 24th 2017, 3:25am

In the Hong Kong catalog, Lot 207 is also worth a look.
Roumiers, as mentioned two pages back in this thread, are also professionally counterfeited.
2009 Roumier BM Acker 2017 R over G.jpg
2009 Roumier BM Acker 2017 R over G.jpg (47.88 KiB) Viewed 7217 times

The detail:
The "R" in Roumier is right above the "G" in MUSIGNY on the Acker bottles.

Here, a more often seen 2009 label, where the "R" is above the "N" in MUSIGNY. (Almost all 2009 references I've seen, has the R over N.)
2009 bonnes_mares_roumier R over N.jpg
2009 bonnes_mares_roumier R over N.jpg (58.95 KiB) Viewed 7217 times


I'm not 100% sure this is correct, but again, -I no like them 2009s sold tomorrow.

-Søren.
User avatar
Don Cornwell
 
Posts: 1449
Joined: June 10th 2010, 1:24am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8218  Postby Don Cornwell » March 24th 2017, 7:24am

Soren R Nielsen wrote:In the Hong Kong catalog, Lot 207 is also worth a look.
Roumiers, as mentioned two pages back in this thread, are also professionally counterfeited.
2009 Roumier BM Acker 2017 R over G.jpg

The detail:
The "R" in Roumier is right above the "G" in MUSIGNY on the Acker bottles.

Here, a more often seen 2009 label, where the "R" is above the "N" in MUSIGNY. (Almost all 2009 references I've seen, has the R over N.)
2009 bonnes_mares_roumier R over N.jpg


I'm not 100% sure this is correct, but again, -I no like them 2009s sold tomorrow.

-Søren.

Soren:

Again, you are absolutely correct about the printing alignment and I just checked two examples from December 2016 auctions, including the HDH auction and the Spectrum auction. Based on the differences versus other bottles, the bottles of 2009 Roumier Bonnes Mares from Acker would appear to be counterfeit.

Image
Purported 2009 Roumier Bonnes Mares in Acker Catalog (Lot 207)

Image Image
Label Detail on purported 2009 Roumier BM in Acker Catalog - - - - - - - Label Detail on 2009 Roumier Bonnes Mares sold at Spectrum Wine Auctions Dec 2016

On both the bottle from Spectrum and the bottle in the HDH Auction catalog for December 2016, the initial R in the line of text on the label "Domaine G. Roumier" is aligned primarily over the N in Musigny, in the line of text below it. The letter R begins over the right edge of the letter G in Musigny. The R in Roumier stradles the N in Musigny below it. This is also true in the photo you posted.

However on the Acker bottle, the R in Roumier is begins over the space between the S and I in the word Musigny, and R ends over the letter G. The N in Musigny is completely to the right of the R in Roumier.

Here is an additional photo of a bottle of 2009 Roumier Bonnes Mares that was sold directly to a European customer by the Domaine. Christophe personally examined this photo and verified it is correct a few days ago. This label is identical to the ones sold at Spectrum and HDH.

Image
2009 Roumier Bonnes Mares purchased directly from the Domaine

There are four other problems that I noticed. First, the Acker label has text "Product of France" that does not appear on the other 2009s. Second, the volume information (750 ml) is located in a completely different location. Third, the glass on the Spectrum bottle has a series of embossed dots (and an embossed number) around the base. There are no dots visible on the Acker bottle. Finally, on the Acker bottle, the letter L in Contrôlée is noticeably rounded off.

Like the photographs of the recent fake Roumiers that were discovered in Belgium, that I recently posted on page 163 http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2120462#p2120462, this appears to be a very sophisticated counterfeit, complete with printed capsules saying Domaine G. Roumier.

I have also noticed several other lots in the Acker Hong Kong catalog which I think are highly suspect or even worse:

Lot 19: 1996 Rousseau Beze magnum --- Why is the 1996 date on the main label completely faded out on both sides of the label, as though someone tried to chemically erase the vintage?

Lots 60 to 62: The 1918 and 1928 Lafite with brand new pristine labels and impossibly pristine capsules and fills look impossibly fake to me absent proof that these bottles were recently rebouchaged at the Chateau. While the embossed bottle on the 1945 appears to be correct from the photograph, the capsule on the 1945 does not appear to be original. The original was a different shade of red and had printed material over the glass lip area of the capsule.

Lots 63-64: 1959 Latour. The capsules on these two bottles clearly do not match. The label on the bottle on the right looks nearly new. The catalog simply says that this bottle "may have been reconditioned" (and doesn't even mention by who). It is not apparent that the glass matches here. The bottle on the right in the photo looks to be somewhat darker green. The bottle on the left has an embossed 75cl, that is not visible in the bottle on the right.

Lot 147: 2002 D’Angerville Clos de Ducs. The plain red capsules on the Acker bottles are incorrect. 2002 D’Angerville Ducs, which I am holding in hand as I write this, has printed capsules, which have three of the Domaine's logos stamped on the capsule equidistant – so one of the logos is always visible at any angle. The logo on the labels on the Acker bottles also appear to be highly faded compared to my own labels, where the red is quite dark.

Lot 183: 1966 Vogüé Bonnes Mares. Again, the Acker bottles are demonstrably incorrect. Vogüé did not have printed labels on the Musigny or the Bonnes Mares in 1966. The capsules with Bonnes Mares printed on them first appeared in the 1970 or 1971 vintage. The labels on the Acker bottles are ridiculously pristine and new for purported 1966 Vogue. Moreover, the original 1966 Bonnes Mares labels with Dreyfus-Ashby strips had the vintage punched out on the label. And these bottles are obviously not recent releases from the Domaine by virtue of the Dreyfus-Ashby strip labels on them.

Lot 340: 1996 Leoville Les Cases Imperial: There is a huge amount of glue visible above the label, which makes me highly suspicious.
Last edited by Don Cornwell on March 24th 2017, 8:28am, edited 1 time in total.
Don Cornwell
Oxidized Burgs Wiki
User avatar
B. Buzzini
 
Posts: 3226
Joined: April 20th 2009, 7:08pm
Location: Calif.

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8219  Postby B. Buzzini » March 24th 2017, 8:14am

Don't think this means definitively they are counterfeit. I just looked at my Roumier bottles, and look at the 3 village chambolle...2 of them line up over the N, one over the IG. Now WHO would counterfeit a village wine? My BM lines up over the G, as well as the 04 CC???

Image
Meursault-head!

B. = Brian
User avatar
Don Cornwell
 
Posts: 1449
Joined: June 10th 2010, 1:24am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8220  Postby Don Cornwell » March 24th 2017, 8:34am

B. Buzzini wrote:Don't think this means definitively they are counterfeit. I just looked at my Roumier bottles, and look at the 3 village chambolle...2 of them line up over the N, one over the IG. Now WHO would counterfeit a village wine? My BM lines up over the G, as well as the 04 CC???

Image

Brian:

I notice that one of your bottles of Chambolle says Product of France on it, while the other two do not. Were the bottles acquired from different countries? One possible explanation is that there might be a special variant of the label for a particular country or countries.
Don Cornwell
Oxidized Burgs Wiki
User avatar
B. Buzzini
 
Posts: 3226
Joined: April 20th 2009, 7:08pm
Location: Calif.

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8221  Postby B. Buzzini » March 24th 2017, 9:25am

Don Cornwell wrote:
B. Buzzini wrote:Don't think this means definitively they are counterfeit. I just looked at my Roumier bottles, and look at the 3 village chambolle...2 of them line up over the N, one over the IG. Now WHO would counterfeit a village wine? My BM lines up over the G, as well as the 04 CC???

Image

Brian:

I notice that one of your bottles of Chambolle says Product of France on it, while the other two do not. Were the bottles acquired from different countries? One possible explanation is that there might be a special variant of the label for a particular country or countries.


I bought 5 of those bottles together, I think from someone here, back in 2012. Probably US destined bottles had diff label prints?
Meursault-head!

B. = Brian
R.Oesterle
SubscriberSubscriber
 
Posts: 881
Joined: June 14th 2010, 11:18am

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8222  Postby R.Oesterle » March 24th 2017, 9:34am

Google image you can find many CM G.Roumier labels with "Product of France" from different vintage,think is simply a country label variation.
Roman
°°°°°°
User avatar
Soren R Nielsen
 
Posts: 694
Joined: March 17th 2016, 8:48am
Location: On, in Copenhagen, Denmark

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8223  Postby Soren R Nielsen » March 24th 2017, 9:37am

Hi Don. Thanks for confirming some suspicions, and adding some more to the visibles list. No photos, no chance to spot the rest..

What can be done to stop this company(read man) from selling obvious counterfeits, that can be spotted just by looking at some pics on internet? -I wonder how many bottles would actually pass a real examination by an independent expert like Maureen.. Not much I think. [swoon.gif]

The next big auction, in 14 days, live in New York, is selling Walter Grunewalds rare bottles.
JK emotionally explains his 20 years of real friendship with this old (sorry but He is 87!) super collector. And how the three of them (Bipin Desai, also) pursued the ultimate wines. -Now it's time to sell again, and the ones helping to sell, could well be the same that helped in buying them.! Hard to loose with that job. Please read the three intros to the Grunewald catalog, gently padding each others back. Very reassuring.
--Sorry for the rant, but I had accumulated a lot of steam.

In New York, Apr. 8, there will be many rare bottles for sale.
Because of the location, and it's in 14 days, maybe there can be a better/easier communication with the staff, about suspicious looking bottles?

For a start, two lots need some explanation: Number 800 and 868. (Old DRCs again.)
Lot 800: Two 1959 La Tache, one with normal 5 digit ser. number, the other with 4 digits. -I know there's some uncertainty about this issue. Still not nice with an odd pair.
Lot 868: 1971 Romanee Conti, with a named capsule (only used after 1977), and a not matching 1972-73 label (Lalous signature in thin writing.) The ser. number is fairly low 01466, not indicating a very late release to match the younger cap.(Higher numbers, as later labeled/released.)

A special neck label, I don't know much about, is seen here on quite a few old DRCs together with the newer name-branded capsules. Some Leroy bottles labeled similar.
This Wilson Daniels vintage stamped neck label:
1962 DRC Richebourg Acker 2017.jpg
1962 DRC Richebourg Acker 2017.jpg (12.46 KiB) Viewed 6848 times

Info on these bottlings could eliminate several questions. A special Wilson Daniels release?
EDIT: -Oh, and a little funny detail about this 1962 Richebourg is the red print crossing the main label saying No Export to USA.. And the neck label names the USA importer (California).

-Søren.
User avatar
Soren R Nielsen
 
Posts: 694
Joined: March 17th 2016, 8:48am
Location: On, in Copenhagen, Denmark

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8224  Postby Soren R Nielsen » March 24th 2017, 11:30am

Brian, You have two quite different label types on that nice pic.
Besides the two types of letters-above-each-other, I see:
-The BM, and number 3 from left, both printed Product of France, and missing heavy watermark lines.
-Number 2 and 4, no France print, and clearly showing visible horizontal watermark lines.
Maybe the export labels are different?

Your 2004 CC has the "most normal seen" label for the 2004s, R over IG. (This changes on the 2005s, to R over N.! -But now I'm not so sure anymore..)

-Søren.
AlbertH
ContributorContributor
 
Posts: 220
Joined: November 4th 2014, 11:58pm

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8225  Postby AlbertH » March 24th 2017, 1:40pm

Totally fascinating to pore over the old DRC bottling photos from the AMC auction pdf. two different fonts for the vintage printed on the labels for some of those 1940s DRC bottlings as well. Seems like in several instances the capsule is cropped out of the photos as well to make it harder for visual verification.
ƃuɐnɥ ʇɹǝqןɐ
IG: dimsum_lose_sum
User avatar
paul hanna
(Online)
 
Posts: 4667
Joined: April 28th 2010, 10:14pm

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8226  Postby paul hanna » March 24th 2017, 4:57pm

Good to see Acker is stil in the buisness of selling conterfeits.

Maybe this time something will finally be done about thier obviously dodgy buisness practices and their apparent inability to spot even simple fakes - ie either Kapon is too dumb to even know, or he is deliberatly defrauding his clients.

Either way, I'm sure Rudy could use a new cell mate to discuss the current state of the fine wine auction market.....
User avatar
B. Buzzini
 
Posts: 3226
Joined: April 20th 2009, 7:08pm
Location: Calif.

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8227  Postby B. Buzzini » March 24th 2017, 5:22pm

Soren R Nielsen wrote:Brian, You have two quite different label types on that nice pic.
Besides the two types of letters-above-each-other, I see:
-The BM, and number 3 from left, both printed Product of France, and missing heavy watermark lines.
-Number 2 and 4, no France print, and clearly showing visible horizontal watermark lines.
Maybe the export labels are different?

Your 2004 CC has the "most normal seen" label for the 2004s, R over IG. (This changes on the 2005s, to R over N.! -But now I'm not so sure anymore..)

-Søren.


Looks like the importer Diageo has there own printed labels...no water marks, R over the IG. The bottles with the water marks have the R over the N, and no label on the back...so not an imported bottle right? None of my bottles have the grey market green sticker on top of the capsule, except the Corton Charlie fwiw.

Image
Meursault-head!

B. = Brian
User avatar
Soren R Nielsen
 
Posts: 694
Joined: March 17th 2016, 8:48am
Location: On, in Copenhagen, Denmark

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8228  Postby Soren R Nielsen » March 25th 2017, 3:04am

Brian, it certainly looks like two different label types are in use on the 2009 Roumiers.
-And the two Ackers sold today, looks like the export labels. (Printed Product of France).

It would be great if someone could contact Diageo, and get the true story. It's important to know the genuines, making the hunt for fakes more effective. This question should be easy to answer, with the details still fresh in memory.

Kind regards, Søren.
R.Oesterle
SubscriberSubscriber
 
Posts: 881
Joined: June 14th 2010, 11:18am

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8229  Postby R.Oesterle » March 25th 2017, 6:42am

had sure own label,here is another from Diageo;
http://www.zinfandelchronicles.com/2012 ... ttle-note/
Image
Roman
°°°°°°
User avatar
Soren R Nielsen
 
Posts: 694
Joined: March 17th 2016, 8:48am
Location: On, in Copenhagen, Denmark

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8230  Postby Soren R Nielsen » March 25th 2017, 7:11am

Good one, Roman.
Diageo obviously has the size to have their name on the bottles (different labels/back-labels).
This info can remove some confusion regarding the straddling letters, and paper quality, being different than the European bottles.
User avatar
RickieM
 
Posts: 167
Joined: January 26th 2015, 10:13pm

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8231  Postby RickieM » March 25th 2017, 8:20am

Just watched Sour Grapes last night on Netflix. Very interesting movie. Found out that Rudy's residence was literally just two blocks away from me. Used to drive and walk past it all the time and who would have known...
Rickie Miy@ke
R.Oesterle
SubscriberSubscriber
 
Posts: 881
Joined: June 14th 2010, 11:18am

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8232  Postby R.Oesterle » March 26th 2017, 4:55am

Roman
°°°°°°
User avatar
Don Cornwell
 
Posts: 1449
Joined: June 10th 2010, 1:24am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8233  Postby Don Cornwell » March 26th 2017, 7:38am

I spent some time yesterday in my commercial storage digging out my 2009 Roumier bottles for examination. I own 2009 Roumier Bonnes Mares that was purchased in the US and came from the Diageo release in New York and bottles that were purchased from one of the Domaine's authorized distributors in Europe. Yes, the Diageo bottles offered for sale in the US have "Product of France" on the label and the alignment of the text below "Domaine G. Roumier" is different on the Diageo label. The labels on the 2009 Roumier Bonnes Mares in the Acker auction appear to match my Diageo bottles, so it does not appear that the 2009 Roumier Bonnes Mares bottles in the Acker auction are counterfeit.
Don Cornwell
Oxidized Burgs Wiki
MiranK
 
Posts: 80
Joined: September 5th 2012, 3:20am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8234  Postby MiranK » March 27th 2017, 1:27am

Maureen, do you mean WeinArt in Germany?

Because that's the only I could find - but not Denmark.
K e g l
User avatar
Soren R Nielsen
 
Posts: 694
Joined: March 17th 2016, 8:48am
Location: On, in Copenhagen, Denmark

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8235  Postby Soren R Nielsen » March 27th 2017, 2:23am

User avatar
Mark Golodetz
 
Posts: 4274
Joined: May 29th 2009, 8:49pm

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8236  Postby Mark Golodetz » March 30th 2017, 11:43am

ITB
User avatar
Maureen Downey
 
Posts: 288
Joined: November 19th 2009, 1:42pm
Location: San Francisco/London/Asia

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8237  Postby Maureen Downey » April 1st 2017, 1:40pm

Philip is the first person outside my company that I trained. Siobhan and I spent a year consulting and training him and his team.

We are now about to train 15 people in 8 countries to be TCM Certified Authenticators.
Hoping to start to take a chunk out of the counterfeit business through increased awareness & education of the trade.
Hopefully it helps! We seem to have a great group assembled.

Philip participated in our last London Wine Fraud & Counterfeiting Presentation & Authentication Training, last Nov. I'm hoping he does again in May. Really, really great guy!
I adore the man! (And the company!)
#ChaiVault, WineFraud.com
User avatar
Ian Sutton
 
Posts: 4166
Joined: March 6th 2014, 3:19pm
Location: Norwich, UK

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8238  Postby Ian Sutton » April 1st 2017, 1:55pm

Here's a naughty question Maureen (said in jest, so no need to answer)

What if Kapon called you up and asked to subscribe to your training course?

I suspect many here would say "No way", but it's an interesting quandary.
Normal for Norfolk
User avatar
David Glasser
SubscriberSubscriber
 
Posts: 3157
Joined: August 16th 2009, 6:03pm
Location: Maryland

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8239  Postby David Glasser » April 1st 2017, 2:30pm

Nice article. Great to see the "next generation" of wine fraud detectives trained by Maureen is starting to have an impact.
A Ballin
 
Posts: 242
Joined: April 27th 2010, 5:43am

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8240  Postby A Ballin » April 1st 2017, 6:23pm

Maureen,

I'm also a big fan of BBR, one thing interested me in the article, they return the counterfeit bottles to the owner, I assume the owner is then free to pass them off to the next buyer.

It's a really tricky legal and commercial area, but what do you think is the correct course of action for retailers who discover fake wines not owned by themselves?

Adam
Adam
User avatar
Maureen Downey
 
Posts: 288
Joined: November 19th 2009, 1:42pm
Location: San Francisco/London/Asia

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8241  Postby Maureen Downey » April 1st 2017, 6:41pm

Ian Sutton wrote:Here's a naughty question Maureen (said in jest, so no need to answer)
What if Kapon called you up and asked to subscribe to your training course?
I suspect many here would say "No way", but it's an interesting quandary.


Actually it's not as crazy as you would think: In HK, Kapon's business partner DID try and sign up for our training! We promptly refunded his money and I sent him an email stating that he could not attend. In fact, I was not going to let my dear friend, Deb Meiburg, MW attend if she were still on the board of Madison Wines, but fortunately she vacated that post last year, so she is more than welcome to attend! Unfortunately for several other people, they have been told they could not attend because of where they work. I just cant risk it.

Prospective attendees have to fill out a declaration form in which we ask about relationships with specific individuals and companies on our "Vendors to Avoid" list: Do they have any dealings with these people, or work with, or for these firms in any way. If necessary we follow up with more questions and if we are not satisfied, they are not allowed to attend.
We also ask for 2 industry references, with whom we follow up. Finally, potential attendees have to sign a declaration of intent regarding the information they may receive, and on the day of, they also sign an additional NDA and declaration.

The TCM Certified program is not inexpensive - and requires a yearly licensing fee to keep active.
We are doing everything we can to make sure we are not training the bad guys, or even people that might not have the most positive of intents.

So the situation you suggest ios not crazy at all - and we have tried to work out all the scenarios to keep out the bad guys.
MD
#ChaiVault, WineFraud.com
Scott Everson
 
Posts: 415
Joined: November 14th 2014, 1:25am
Location: People's Republic of Portland

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8242  Postby Scott Everson » April 1st 2017, 9:38pm

If I intend on committing fraud on the order of hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars, do you think I'm going to balk at signing some BS piece of paper promising to be a good person ? Who is on the list of people you refuse to work ... with whom you refuse to work?
User avatar
Tim McCracken
 
Posts: 531
Joined: February 8th 2012, 4:24am
Location: Paris, France

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8243  Postby Tim McCracken » April 1st 2017, 10:13pm

Scott Everson wrote:If I intend on committing fraud on the order of hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars, do you think I'm going to balk at signing some BS piece of paper promising to be a good person ? Who is on the list of people you refuse to work ... with whom you refuse to work?


It is disingenuous to even ask that question. Early on, on this very thread, the auctioneer stated: "Rudy is not a consignor in this auction and has not been a consignor with Spectrum since we have started." This was false. The wine fraud enablers are well documented. They are the ones that either know the wines came from fraudulent sources or avoid due diligence because they don't want to "know" where the wines came from.

In a business where reselling fraudulent or stolen product is rampant, integrity becomes the foundation for a legitimate marketplace.
User avatar
Ian Sutton
 
Posts: 4166
Joined: March 6th 2014, 3:19pm
Location: Norwich, UK

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8244  Postby Ian Sutton » April 2nd 2017, 2:54am

Scott Everson wrote:If I intend on committing fraud on the order of hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars, do you think I'm going to balk at signing some BS piece of paper promising to be a good person ? Who is on the list of people you refuse to work ... with whom you refuse to work?


Hi Scott
Maureen posted a list here a while back, which I suspect is a good starting point if you are interested. It wouldn't surprise me if there was also a second list, of places that her company has concerns about, but without enough evidence to post their names on a wine forum.

Nothing of course is failsafe, but putting such processes in place must help. One further consideration might be to explore that person's role, hence motive. Someone trading in wine, running a large restaurant wine list, brokering wine etc. would have a genuine reason to learn more in detail. It doesn't prevent them from befriending or being befriended by a Rudy or Hardy, nor indeed packing honest work in for crime, nor making a positive decision to offload fakes as real. Someone new to the scene, but spending big - like Rudy - would have a positive motive though, as well as the criminal motive he had. However it is worth considering that many of the big players would have people who do authentication for them. How many would care about the detail if you can pay people to do that?

Hi Maureen
Well there you go - I'd assumed it was a hypothetical moral dilemma, not a real one!

regards
Ian
Normal for Norfolk
User avatar
Maureen Downey
 
Posts: 288
Joined: November 19th 2009, 1:42pm
Location: San Francisco/London/Asia

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8245  Postby Maureen Downey » April 11th 2017, 10:03am

baffles me how they just keep on keeping on....
https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2017/04/ackers-grunewald-auction-achieves-us7-million/

Then again, I believe NOTHING that acker reports as truth. Sale could have been 65% sold and they would report 100% sold. I wonder what the % sold and the dollar amount will be in a week when they default on the fake buys.
#ChaiVault, WineFraud.com
User avatar
Anton D
SubscriberSubscriber
 
Posts: 18712
Joined: October 17th 2013, 11:25am
Location: Chico, CA

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8246  Postby Anton D » April 11th 2017, 10:10am

Maureen Downey wrote:baffles me how they just keep on keeping on....
https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2017/04/ackers-grunewald-auction-achieves-us7-million/

Then again, I believe NOTHING that acker reports as truth. Sale could have been 65% sold and they would report 100% sold. I wonder what the % sold and the dollar amount will be in a week when they default on the fake buys.


I expect Rudy will be back at the 'heavy lumber' tastings after he is released, too.

"He's gotta be on the up and up, now," will be heard throughout the high end bad boy steak houses of the land.
Anton Dotson
User avatar
scott c
SubscriberSubscriber
 
Posts: 1991
Joined: December 29th 2009, 10:26am
Location: Washington, DC

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8247  Postby scott c » April 11th 2017, 10:18am

Anton D wrote:
Maureen Downey wrote:baffles me how they just keep on keeping on....
https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2017/04/ackers-grunewald-auction-achieves-us7-million/

Then again, I believe NOTHING that acker reports as truth. Sale could have been 65% sold and they would report 100% sold. I wonder what the % sold and the dollar amount will be in a week when they default on the fake buys.


I expect Rudy will be back at the 'heavy lumber' tastings after he is released, too.

"He's gotta be on the up and up, now," will be heard throughout the high end bad boy steak houses of the land.


In Asia, maybe. Most likely, he will be deported upon release from prison.
c 1 @ f f e e

"By serving the best, never the most, a host compliments both himself and guest, and compensates with additional enjoyment what he wisely limits in number of drinks."
-Julian P. ("Pappy") Van Winkle, Sr.
User avatar
John Danza
 
Posts: 1279
Joined: December 4th 2009, 1:23pm
Location: Chicagoland

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8248  Postby John Danza » April 11th 2017, 11:08am

Maureen Downey wrote:baffles me how they just keep on keeping on....
https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2017/04/ackers-grunewald-auction-achieves-us7-million/

Then again, I believe NOTHING that acker reports as truth. Sale could have been 65% sold and they would report 100% sold. I wonder what the % sold and the dollar amount will be in a week when they default on the fake buys.


It would be great if some of the heads of these big producers (DRC, Krug, all the 1st growths, etc.) would make it a habit of viewing all the lots Acker was planning on selling in auctions with the intent on determining authenticity. It would be expensive, but it would help their brand in the industry and also help the industry generally. Acker would be out of business quickly.
John Danza
Hans Hauser
 
Posts: 221
Joined: February 9th 2012, 10:19am

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8249  Postby Hans Hauser » April 11th 2017, 1:18pm

John, you have a missunderstanding.
DRC does not want to authenticate bottles for people who want to auction them off.
They want to sell to people who enjoy their wines. For that they have their distributors.
These wines are expensive enough as they are without a second market.
Their business is to sell wine, not to garantee provenances.

On the other hand you can relie on the professionals in the auction business...
That makes it a rather simple choice on my book.
I drink wine, not potential...
User avatar
John Danza
 
Posts: 1279
Joined: December 4th 2009, 1:23pm
Location: Chicagoland

RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Post #8250  Postby John Danza » April 12th 2017, 11:05am

Hans Hauser wrote:John, you have a missunderstanding.
DRC does not want to authenticate bottles for people who want to auction them off.
They want to sell to people who enjoy their wines. For that they have their distributors.
These wines are expensive enough as they are without a second market.
Their business is to sell wine, not to garantee provenances.

On the other hand you can relie on the professionals in the auction business...
That makes it a rather simple choice on my book.


Hans, you misunderstood my comment. These houses should check the authenticity of the bottles not for the benefit of the auction house, but in order to catch the auction houses selling fake bottles. That's how we eventually get companies like Acker to play honestly, or go out of business.

On the other hand you can relie on the professionals in the auction business...


Please tell me that was said in jest. Everything that's happened over the past several years says that if you do this, you're likely to get screwed.
John Danza

Return to Wine Talk

logo
Food Advertising by