Expert scores and red wine bias

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John D. Zuccarino
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Expert scores and red wine bias

Post #1  Postby John D. Zuccarino » October 24th 2016, 3:41pm

Expert scores and red wine bias

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PhD, and former college math professor Suneal Chaudhary did the numbers, analyzing more than 64,000 wine scores dating to the 1970s and taken from the major wine magazines. The results are something I’ve been trying to get a handle on for years, the idea that critics favor reds over whites. The details are after the jump:

The study found:


I am not in the least surprised, anyone ITB seems to know this... the real question is why ? why ? if wine is so subjective ???? this might rouse the big questions... can a wine be rated without bias...

and we can add NV wines into this mix...

Shalom !!!
"if I cannot move heaven I will raise hell"

Virgil's Aeneid...Hell must have frozen over, somehow I am a Donor


John D. Zuccarino

Silver Springs Winery L.L.C.


AKA Don Giovanni Wines tm.

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Blake R Maso
 
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Expert scores and red wine bias

Post #2  Postby Blake R Maso » October 24th 2016, 4:18pm

There are a couple ways to go about this..
1. Should a wine rating be biased? Certain countries, or time periods, favor certain profiles in aggregate.. should this be taken into account? You could argue both sides, if the argument is yes, then that would be a bias to serve the most people..
2. Whatever criteria is decided on will have an inherent bias (or what is trying to be achieved). Even if this is done by AI, the programmer will have to input a criteria to judge it by, long lived wines might be scored higher than fruit bombs and not everyone agrees which is better. Attempts to be all inclusive will yield less useful results to the people who care the most..

I could go on but those are the two things that came to mind first, I also wouldn't doubt that there are probably holes in my argument as it's not well structured.. but in any case... we are a long way off of a perfect solution and should accept a certain amt of bias..

Also, I think in most cases reds have more to offer.. now an iconic white can be more hauntingly complex than anything, but it takes a special something to catapult a white to that level... that's just my bias anyways.

Interesting to contemplate.
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Expert scores and red wine bias

Post #3  Postby Murray Stiles » October 24th 2016, 4:20pm

Generally speaking, red wines are more complex than white wines, I think that's the primary driver.

As far as NV wines go, with some notable exceptions such as Krug, these do tend to be lesser wines.

I don't think we have a case of tail wagging the dog here.
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Craig G
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Expert scores and red wine bias

Post #4  Postby Craig G » October 24th 2016, 8:41pm

Like Harry Waugh said, the first duty of a wine is to be red.
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Nick Ellis
 
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Expert scores and red wine bias

Post #5  Postby Nick Ellis » October 24th 2016, 8:57pm

John:

I spent significant time in the Finger Lakes region from 1996 to 2013 and especially on Seneca Lake, but never ran into you. What town are you in?

Best,

Nick
Last edited by Nick Ellis on October 25th 2016, 8:54am, edited 1 time in total.
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Expert scores and red wine bias

Post #6  Postby Lee Short » October 24th 2016, 9:05pm

Murray Stiles wrote:Generally speaking, red wines are more complex than white wines.


I don't find this to be true. I've heard it before and I think it says more about the taster than about the wines.

But maybe that just an artifact of the particular white wines I tend to drink.

But how would you even gauge if this were true? What would constitute a "general" cross section of red and white wines on which to base such a judgment?
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Expert scores and red wine bias

Post #7  Postby Doug Schulman » October 25th 2016, 11:14am

Murray Stiles wrote:Generally speaking, red wines are more complex than white wines

I completely disagree.
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A. So
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Expert scores and red wine bias

Post #8  Postby A. So » October 25th 2016, 11:28am

Statistical analysis on a pile of garbage numbers (wine "scores") is garbage.
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Expert scores and red wine bias

Post #9  Postby A. So » October 25th 2016, 11:31am

Murray Stiles wrote:Generally speaking, red wines are more complex than white wines, I think that's the primary driver.

On what basis is this complexity measured?
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larry schaffer
 
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Expert scores and red wine bias

Post #10  Postby larry schaffer » October 25th 2016, 11:34am

'Objective wine score' is an oxymoron . .
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K John Joseph
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Expert scores and red wine bias

Post #11  Postby K John Joseph » October 25th 2016, 11:58am

Can we re-run the numbers to see if stickies from Barsac, Sauternes, Alsace, and Port completely break the "findings?"

Perhaps supply, demand, competition, and ROI are leading contributors? In the US, why focus on making ultra-high end white wine that is unlikely to fetch more than $100 a bottle, Marcassin chard aside, when you could make any number of red wines with that space and effort that could exceed $125 a pop. Same with Bordeaux. Why farm whites when even elite dry whites fetch a small percentage of that demanded by elite red wines. There is a financial incentive for wineries to focus on satisfying consumer demand. Where demand for a product is high, and vineyard availability low the prices, and often the scores, are very high--see white burgundy.

Importantly, I assume critics' acclaim is highly associated with customer approval. If customers are clamoring for red wine, critics who focus on popular red wine flavor profiles are likely to rise in prominence. Those tastes may differ than tastes associated with white wines, often enjoyed cooler with higher levels of acidity. The difference in a critic's personal preference is undoubtedly a source of scoring bias red v. white.

Those are my best guesses. I'd also wager that stickies bust the mold, as they're routinely scored through the roof.
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John D. Zuccarino
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Expert scores and red wine bias

Post #12  Postby John D. Zuccarino » October 26th 2016, 8:34pm

Nick Ellis wrote:John:

I spent significant time in the Finger Lakes region from 1996 to 2013 and especially on Seneca Lake, but never ran into you. What town are you in?

Best,

Nick


Hi Nick,

we are in Burdett on the east side of Seneca two miles south of Atwater and five miles on 414 from Watkins glen... we never advertise and have a modest tasting-room that looks more like a house... we can't handle the traffic now so ... building a 1800 sq foot tasting room right next to the original tasting room and the foundation is in... if winter holds off I would like to get her framed with walls and enclosed etc...

Shalom !!!

Salute !!!
"if I cannot move heaven I will raise hell"

Virgil's Aeneid...Hell must have frozen over, somehow I am a Donor


John D. Zuccarino

Silver Springs Winery L.L.C.


AKA Don Giovanni Wines tm.
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John D. Zuccarino
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Expert scores and red wine bias

Post #13  Postby John D. Zuccarino » October 26th 2016, 8:37pm

Doug Schulman wrote:
Murray Stiles wrote:Generally speaking, red wines are more complex than white wines

I completely disagree.


+1

white wine are just as complex...the difference, the notes are elusive and coy as to hide in a fog and as the fog lifts you get the burlesque of TN's from white wines...


Shalom !!!

Salute !!!
"if I cannot move heaven I will raise hell"

Virgil's Aeneid...Hell must have frozen over, somehow I am a Donor


John D. Zuccarino

Silver Springs Winery L.L.C.


AKA Don Giovanni Wines tm.
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PaulMills
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Expert scores and red wine bias

Post #14  Postby PaulMills » October 27th 2016, 5:51am

The only thing that would make some people think that white wines are not as complex is the temperature at which they are served. Too cold and the flavors die. Why do you think Coors Lite, and the like, are supposed to be served ice cold?

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