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Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine
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Todd F r e n c h
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Post #151  Postby Todd F r e n c h » August 8th 2013, 9:56am

Craig Gleason wrote:
Larry Link wrote:Every night is going to be an offline at my house!

I'm available that night.

What a coincidence! Me, too!
Apparently I'm lazy, have a narrow agenda, and offer little in the way of content and substance (RMP) (and have a "penchant for gossip" -KBI)

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Post #152  Postby Todd F r e n c h » August 8th 2013, 9:59am

PeterJ wrote:
Kevin Shin wrote:Matt,
It appears as introduction of argon stops the aging process hence no need to cellar a Coravined bottle. .


From what I've learned Argon, itself, in the open space would have no effect on the wine. I'd suggest that the reduction of the amount of oxygen, as a percentage of what's in the open space (when mixed with 100% Argon), would retard aging. The result is the same, but why is different.

This is pretty much the same thing Al is describing just above.

Peter,

I know your system uses Argon as well, but is more of an Argon-insertion tool rather than the combination of the pourer and the Argon-insertion tool, correct? I saw on your site that you suggest Argon lasts 7 days for preservation, but the Coravin marketing infers much, much longer - is that because the bottle wasn't fully opened?
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Post #153  Postby PeterJ » August 8th 2013, 10:24am

Todd, that's exactly right. Coravin works even more securely than an Enomatic in that the bottle is NEVER uncorked. I think it's an amazing product. I can understand why it took so much money to design and bring to market.

My product is like the spray cans that are so popular, but mine uses only 100% winery grade Argon that's under high pressure so you get lots of uses per cylinder. To maximize preservation I suggest gassing enough to fill the entire empty space after every pouring session. Still...... not the same as never being opened or only exposed to air when put in the device (Enomatic), but maybe more suited to high-use hospitality applications.
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Post #154  Postby John Fagan » August 8th 2013, 10:33am

Got mine this week and will be trying it out tomorrow. I own too many large format bottles that I bought on the fantasy of having large dinner parties with appropriately appreciative wine snob guests. For me, being able to tap a large bottle and drinking it over an extended period of time is well worth the cost of the device.
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Post #155  Postby Ralph Earle » August 8th 2013, 11:21am

Has anyone tried it on a bottle sealed with wax?
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Post #156  Postby Michael Giammalvo » August 8th 2013, 11:30am

Ralph Earle wrote:Has anyone tried it on a bottle sealed with wax?


Doesn't sound like a good idea as it might clog the needle. I imagine that Coravin would recommend removing wax capsules.
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Post #157  Postby Brad Walden » August 8th 2013, 1:33pm

This sounds like a great toy to have for someone who was recently diagnosed with a serious health condition and can only drink one glass at a time...and only on special occasions. :(

Thanks to the fellow Berserker who brought my attention to this thread! This is a game changer for me! [cheers.gif]
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Post #158  Postby David Gerstenfeld » August 8th 2013, 1:51pm

I called them about wax and they said no problem the needle goes right through. I will try a Raveneau chablis this weekend and report back.
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Post #159  Postby Roy Piper » August 8th 2013, 1:52pm

Going to a demo tonight. Looking forward to it!
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Post #160  Postby Todd F r e n c h » August 8th 2013, 3:36pm

Jeez. Did any Berserker NOT buy one?? Am I the only one left?
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Post #161  Postby Kirk.Grant » August 8th 2013, 3:40pm

Todd F r e n c h wrote:Jeez. Did any Berserker NOT buy one?? Am I the only one left?


I didn't buy one...and won't until the price is around $150 or less. With expensive cartrages I'm just not feeling the need. I think this will be like the Vinturi...everyone had to have one the first year they came out...but now they just sit on the shelves in wine stores.
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Post #162  Postby Michael Giammalvo » August 8th 2013, 3:42pm

I am holding out for some longer term berserker reviews. That being said, I have no patience and will probably jump in sooner.
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Post #163  Postby Russ Williams » August 8th 2013, 4:15pm

Todd F r e n c h wrote:Jeez. Did any Berserker NOT buy one?? Am I the only one left?


For my own consumption habits, and at the current price point, I simply cannot justify it.
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Post #164  Postby Todd F r e n c h » August 8th 2013, 5:08pm

Russ Williams wrote:
Todd F r e n c h wrote:Jeez. Did any Berserker NOT buy one?? Am I the only one left?


For my own consumption habits, and at the current price point, I simply cannot justify it.

Have you any bottles of wine worth the same amount?
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Post #165  Postby Nick Ryan » August 8th 2013, 5:12pm

Again, the way to justify this is to have a less-expensive (per bottle) preservation system for, well, cheaper bottles, and save the Coravin for those $300 aged wines you absolutely cannot afford to have going bad on you.
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Post #166  Postby alan weinberg » August 8th 2013, 5:30pm

so there are no concerns about bacterial or fungal contamination with resultant wine spoilage by passing a needle through capsule and cork into a bottle?
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Post #167  Postby J. Galang » August 8th 2013, 6:03pm

For me I would probably use a foil cutter to remove the top of the foil, to sort of mark what bottles have been coravined. Also gives me a chance to see if the top of the cork is clean or not.

I would also clean the needle from time to time using water and the needle cleaner they include with the package.
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Post #168  Postby Russ Williams » August 8th 2013, 6:05pm

Todd F r e n c h wrote:
Russ Williams wrote:
Todd F r e n c h wrote:Jeez. Did any Berserker NOT buy one?? Am I the only one left?


For my own consumption habits, and at the current price point, I simply cannot justify it.

Have you any bottles of wine worth the same amount?


Not even close and not sure if I did that it would change my mind.
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Post #169  Postby Roy Piper » August 8th 2013, 7:32pm

Just used it and saw it used with a bunch of industry at Bardessono Hotel in Yountville. Tried it on very high end NorCal wines that had been Coravin'ed many times. Cool device. To me, the bottles poured after 35 days did not taste like unopened bottles, but more like opened bottles after a few hours decanted. Which oddly, might be a good thing. Had the Colgin IX, Rudd Samantha's, Kistler Cuvee Cathleen Pinot and Dana Helms, among others. No negative oxidation from what I could tell. Not sure I would sit on a bottle for a year after using the Coravin, but it still seems like a game changer in many ways.

Just think how this will change auctions! Every bottle of old wine can now be tasted by someone before bought or sold at auction. And also, I talked to some Napa movers and shakers who might use it for good buyers who can now try older bottles while on tour. So many possibilities.
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Post #170  Postby Robert Alfert, Jr. » August 8th 2013, 7:34pm

Todd F r e n c h wrote:Jeez. Did any Berserker NOT buy one?? Am I the only one left?


I just heard of this thing after seeing Jeff's post. And over the time it took me to read this thread and watch the website videos, I almost killed a bottle of Cote de Brouilly. So I guess I don't need it . . . .

[wow.gif]
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Post #171  Postby todd waldmann » August 8th 2013, 8:18pm

Robert Alfert, Jr. wrote:
Todd F r e n c h wrote:Jeez. Did any Berserker NOT buy one?? Am I the only one left?


I just heard of this thing after seeing Jeff's post. And over the time it took me to read this thread and watch the website videos, I almost killed a bottle of Cote de Brouilly. So I guess I don't need it . . . .

[wow.gif]


The most scientific assessment (next to Al's) in this entire thread. [cheers.gif]
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Post #172  Postby c fu » August 8th 2013, 8:18pm

Robert Alfert, Jr. wrote:
Todd F r e n c h wrote:Jeez. Did any Berserker NOT buy one?? Am I the only one left?


I just heard of this thing after seeing Jeff's post. And over the time it took me to read this thread and watch the website videos, I almost killed a bottle of Cote de Brouilly. So I guess I don't need it . . . .

[wow.gif]

some ppl are alcoholics and some aren't neener neener. Strongly considered buying one. Bought an immersion circulator instead. I eat more than I drink :D
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Post #173  Postby Nick Ryan » August 8th 2013, 8:26pm

Roy Piper wrote:Just used it and saw it used with a bunch of industry at Bardessono Hotel in Yountville. Tried it on very high end NorCal wines that had been Coravin'ed many times. Cool device. To me, the bottles poured after 35 days did not taste like unopened bottles, but more like opened bottles after a few hours decanted.


The one thing Coravin can't get around is the fact that there is a lot more non-wine space in the bottle after a few glasses have been poured. That new space is of course occupied by argon, as no new oxygen has been introduced, so oxidation won't occur, but what will occur is dissipation of volatiles from the wine into the volume. Surely that will make a difference for some wines.

Just got mine in the mail today, first victim will be a 2000 Mongeard-Mugneret Grands-Echezeaux.
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Post #174  Postby Greg Smith » August 8th 2013, 8:50pm

This whole discussion blows me away. I am not interested in drinking 3 oz's of my best bottles every year or so. I would rather open my best bottles for my family/friends when I think they are ready and take a chance. Sometimes you choose poorly but with good wine, you usually choose wisely. Whatever happened to opening great bottles of wine when u have the right group of friends to enjoy them. I have no interest in sipping my best wine in private
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Post #175  Postby Nick Ryan » August 8th 2013, 8:54pm

Image

Hmm, I hope it's OK to leave the Coravin attached overnight, I figured why remove it since I'm drinking the second half tomorrow.
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Post #176  Postby Nick Ryan » August 8th 2013, 8:57pm

Nick Ryan wrote:Hmm, I hope it's OK to leave the Coravin attached overnight, I figured why remove it since I'm drinking the second half tomorrow.


Actually I'm a moron, if I'm planning to drink the rest tomorrow I'll just be popping the cork and pouring it normally, no need to have the Coravin attached at all!
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Post #177  Postby Nick Ryan » August 8th 2013, 9:03pm

Image

OK, Coravin removed, you can see the "dimple". Nothing leaking, everything working out great so far.
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Post #178  Postby Al Osterheld » August 8th 2013, 9:09pm

I am not interested in drinking 3 oz's of my best bottles every year or so. I would rather open my best bottles for my family/friends when I think they are ready and take a chance.

Yes, that's the main reason I don't have any plans to buy one.

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Post #179  Postby Larry Link » August 8th 2013, 10:06pm

Greg Smith wrote:This whole discussion blows me away. I am not interested in drinking 3 oz's of my best bottles every year or so. I would rather open my best bottles for my family/friends when I think they are ready and take a chance. Sometimes you choose poorly but with good wine, you usually choose wisely. Whatever happened to opening great bottles of wine when u have the right group of friends to enjoy them. I have no interest in sipping my best wine in private


I still plan on opening bottles with friends, but realistically that happens once or twice every 2 weeks or so. This is a game changer for the other nights. For example if my wife and I make a nice dinner at home with cracked crab as an appetizer and then follow that with a steak, I can now pour a glass of Chablis to pair with the crab and a glass of nice mature Red Burgundy to go with the steak. We rarely finish a single bottle between us let alone 2 in one evening. Now with the Coravin I can match the wine to our food without wasting wine or letting it oxidize in the fridge after opening.
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Post #180  Postby Nick Ryan » August 8th 2013, 10:19pm

Nick Ryan wrote:Just got mine in the mail today, first victim will be a 2000 Mongeard-Mugneret Grands-Echezeaux.


And a victim it was... spoiled, tastes like weedkiller. Dammit. Of course, not the fault of the Coravin. Off to something else...
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Post #181  Postby J. Galang » August 8th 2013, 10:21pm

Greg Smith wrote:This whole discussion blows me away. I am not interested in drinking 3 oz's of my best bottles every year or so. I would rather open my best bottles for my family/friends when I think they are ready and take a chance. Sometimes you choose poorly but with good wine, you usually choose wisely. Whatever happened to opening great bottles of wine when u have the right group of friends to enjoy them. I have no interest in sipping my best wine in private


Definitely understand your point, but I think a lot of people will also use the Coravin to improve the quality of their everyday drinking wines. Just a theory, but instead of just opening $15 bottles because of the fear of the wine going to waste since not enough people will drink it at one time, people might be less afraid to "coravin" a $30-$50 wine since they are confident that it will last for another few weeks/months intact. Personally I probably will rarely use Coravin on my best bottles ($100 up) since I will save those bottles for special occasions and open with family and friends. But again, one person's "special" bottle is another man's everyday drinker.....
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Post #182  Postby J. Galang » August 8th 2013, 10:24pm

Nick Ryan wrote:
Nick Ryan wrote:Just got mine in the mail today, first victim will be a 2000 Mongeard-Mugneret Grands-Echezeaux.


And a victim it was... spoiled, tastes like weedkiller. Dammit. Of course, not the fault of the Coravin. Off to something else...



Since you have nothing to lose (except maybe cellar space), and have already spent the argon gas, why not keep the bottle for another 2 years and see what happens to it....
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Post #183  Postby Otto Dobre » August 8th 2013, 10:32pm

I would be curious to find out how successful people are at returning bad bottles of a wine that was not "opened".

I'll probably order one soon. It's not that expensive, and if it works, it's a great money saver.
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Post #184  Postby Nick Ryan » August 8th 2013, 10:45pm

J. Galang wrote:
Nick Ryan wrote:
Nick Ryan wrote:Just got mine in the mail today, first victim will be a 2000 Mongeard-Mugneret Grands-Echezeaux.


And a victim it was... spoiled, tastes like weedkiller. Dammit. Of course, not the fault of the Coravin. Off to something else...



Since you have nothing to lose (except maybe cellar space), and have already spent the argon gas, why not keep the bottle for another 2 years and see what happens to it....


Hmm, interesting proposition. I will indeed do so, I haven't yet discarded the unopened bottle.
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Post #185  Postby Otto Dobre » August 8th 2013, 11:24pm

Order placed, very excited about this product. Imagine, drinking my sweets one glass at a time. Or evaluating a bottle without having to finish off. Will post notes.
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Post #186  Postby Robert Alfert, Jr. » August 9th 2013, 12:54am

Charlie Fu wrote:
Robert Alfert, Jr. wrote:
Todd F r e n c h wrote:Jeez. Did any Berserker NOT buy one?? Am I the only one left?


I just heard of this thing after seeing Jeff's post. And over the time it took me to read this thread and watch the website videos, I almost killed a bottle of Cote de Brouilly. So I guess I don't need it . . . .

[wow.gif]

some ppl are alcoholics and some aren't neener neener. Strongly considered buying one. Bought an immersion circulator instead. I eat more than I drink :D


I must be a total Neanderthal as I don't even know what an "immersion circular" is!

I'm with the minority on this one, as well stated by Greg. I just don't see myself slinkering into the dark recesses of my storage to poke away at my wine like a vampire, drawing the sacred blood several ounces at a time. No offense meant! [wow.gif]

That said, I can virtually guarantee that my wife will see this gadget somewhere, buy it for me for Xmas like she does every year with a new-fangled gadget (usually wine or coffee, once a ridiculous massage chair), and I have to open it with glee and excitement, only to exhort later that I don't like it, it doesn't work, take it back. . . . It's a running theme, mostly cause I'm a pain in the arse like that . . . . [wow.gif]

EDit: Come to think of it, my wife has now gotten me three massage-chair/massage chair-related gadgets . . . .
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Post #187  Postby Bill Moore » August 9th 2013, 5:43am

Robert Alfert, Jr. wrote:
That said, I can virtually guarantee that my wife will see this gadget somewhere, buy it for me for Xmas like she does every year with a new-fangled gadget (usually wine or coffee, once a ridiculous massage chair), and I have to open it with glee and excitement, only to exhort later that I don't like it, it doesn't work, take it back. . . . It's a running theme, mostly cause I'm a pain in the arse like that . . . . [wow.gif]

EDit: Come to think of it, my wife has now gotten me three massage-chair/massage chair-related gadgets . . . .


Three massage-related gadgets?! That's some unsubtle self-gifting. When she gets you Josh Groban tickets for Christmas, it's time to throw the flag....
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Post #188  Postby Robert Alfert, Jr. » August 9th 2013, 5:47am

LOL, Bill. Now bear in mind, that's over 3 different Xmas. Yea Groban and Michael Buble would be the coup de gras.

I showed her the Coravin this morning as a preemptive strike. Told her that Vacu-vin she stuffed in my stocking a few years back, along with the air-pump cork remover, which I then stuck in a drawer, work perfectly . . . .
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Post #189  Postby k s h i n » August 9th 2013, 8:00am

So far, Talbot Mag – initial pour was a bit tight. Last night, 24 hours later, a generous pour that showed nicely. IMO, it is better to have a generous pour and leave in your cellar for an hour before drinking.

I also tried the 83 Chave which was a bit thin and the 01 Rouget Echezeaux a bit reductive last night.
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Post #190  Postby scott c » August 9th 2013, 8:02am

In thinking about this more, I've decided the best use of this, for me, might be on dessert wines. We almost never open Sauternes, German BA/TBA, etc. because we would only want a glass at the end of a meal and wouldn't want to "waste" opening a whole bottle. I usually buy half bottles because of this (and still never think to open them anyway!), but I can definitely see now keeping a 750mL of Sauternes around the house for those occasions when we want a glass.
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Post #191  Postby dougwilder » August 9th 2013, 2:45pm

Roy Piper wrote:Just think how this will change auctions! Every bottle of old wine can now be tasted by someone before bought or sold at auction. And also, I talked to some Napa movers and shakers who might use it for good buyers who can now try older bottles while on tour. So many possibilities.


There is a strong possibility I add these to the welcome kit alng with the other gear for the advanced subscription level.
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Post #192  Postby Matt Snow » August 9th 2013, 3:28pm

Al Osterheld wrote:If you hermetically sealed a wine bottle, the oxygen in the head space would disappear because it would be absorbed into the wine and make oxidation products. The reason why a normal cork-finished bottle continues to age through oxidation reactions is that the cork continues to allow more oxygen to slowly enter the head space. That will continue to happen with a bottle that has been Coravin'ed.

Argon is heavier than oxygen, but that only matters in the short term. After a relatively short time, diffusion causes all of the gases in the head space to be almost uniformly distributed throughout the head space (the differences from a uniform distribution in a wine bottle would be miniscule). Basically, the differences in weight of the different molecules aren't very large compared to the collisions that knock the molecules around. So, any oxygen in the head space will reach the surface of the wine where it can be absorbed and oxidize the wine.


A practical observation of the phenomenon that Al describes: If the heavier gas always sank to the bottom, we would have a hard time breathing at sea level, as the lowest 500 feet or so of Earth's atmosphere would be all argon (and other gases heavier than oxygen). It is because gases diffuse that the air we breathe contains relatively constant proportions of oxygen, nitrogen, CO2, etc.

Also worth repeating an observation that Al made further upthread: although the use of the Coravin may not significantly affect the volume of oxygen that contacts the wine, it does (depending on how much you empty the bottle) significantly reduce the volume of wine that is in contact with the same amount of oxygen. Assuming a constant oxygen ingress, it would be reasonable to expect a bottle half of which has been emptied by Coravin to age faster than an untouched bottle. It is unclear to me whether this would be similar to the difference between aging a half-bottle versus a full bottle or might be more pronounced because the oxygen exposure would be spread over a greater surface area.

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Post #193  Postby François Audouze » August 9th 2013, 3:49pm

I am sorry, I have not read the six pages of this discussion, but I have seen the video of Coravin.

I must say that it is completely opposite to my personal philosophy for wine enjoying.

I accept to be considered as old fashioned, but here are some comments :

- up to now, every bottle which was opened for a meal was finished at the end of the meal.
- so, I have no stress to consider keeping a remaining part of a bottle because I am used to practice a global consumption of every bottle
- the idea to take a glass from a bottle and to keep a remaining bottle in my cellar with an awful level does not pleases me
- with very old wines, I am sure that all this procedure will change the taste of the remaining liquid, due to all the moves made. It is not scientific, it is a strong belief
- this opens the door to counterfeiting
- what are your friends going to think if you serve a bottle half empty ?
- would you accept to be served with a foie gras box, which was emptied with the Coravin method, with only half of foie gras remaining ?
- if the glass that you poured does not please you, what do you do with the rest ? Your friends will tell you : no problem, open something else !

I consider Coravin as a great danger and as an enemy to all what I have learned : respect for the bottle, respect for the liquid, respect for the ceremony.

So, I say good luck for the ones who will decide to use this device which I consider as terrifying.
Kind regards

François Audouze
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Coravin demo

Post #194  Postby PeterJ » August 9th 2013, 4:13pm

Matt Snow wrote:

Also worth repeating an observation that Al made further upthread: although the use of the Coravin may not significantly affect the volume of oxygen that contacts the wine, it does (depending on how much you empty the bottle) significantly reduce the volume of wine that is in contact with the same amount of oxygen. Assuming a constant oxygen ingress, it would be reasonable to expect a bottle half of which has been emptied by Coravin to age faster than an untouched bottle. It is unclear to me whether this would be similar to the difference between aging a half-bottle versus a full bottle or might be more pronounced because the oxygen exposure would be spread over a greater surface area.

-- Matt


Just wondering how you are concluding that the amount of oxygen in the 'empty' space is going to have any increased impact on the wine as the level goes down. I think I can see the oxygen-to-surface-area issue while the wine level is still at the neck and then the shoulders of the bottle, but after that in a Bordeaux bottle????? Also................... if the oxygen mixes with the injected Argon, as Al has said here and I've been told by gas scientists, wouldn't that proportionately lessen the effect of the oxygen as more and more Argon is injected? Al seems to be the closest thing we have here to the science of this. Hopefully he can comment as well. I'm applying logic mixed with a dangerously low level of science info.
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Coravin demo

Post #195  Postby Andrew W. » August 10th 2013, 6:36am

Can you put the needle into the 'head space' and replace the oxygen with argon??? No guess what this would do to aging....
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Peter Kleban
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Coravin demo

Post #196  Postby Peter Kleban » August 10th 2013, 7:59am

alan weinberg wrote:so there are no concerns about bacterial or fungal contamination with resultant wine spoilage by passing a needle through capsule and cork into a bottle?
alan


Good question. Especially if you let the wine age for a long time afterwards.
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Coravin demo

Post #197  Postby Peter Kleban » August 10th 2013, 8:00am

Nick Ryan wrote:Image

OK, Coravin removed, you can see the "dimple". Nothing leaking, everything working out great so far.


Why does that remind me of a laparoscopic incision? ;-) (and I'm not even a [real] Doctor)
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Coravin demo

Post #198  Postby Chris Freemott » August 10th 2013, 8:42am

My kid brother, who is the GM for a high-end country club company (Kemper Sports) just picked one up. I think he's going to use this to do a better by the glass service. Also, his club (and many clubs) have lockers his members rent to store their own bottles of wine. This product may allow him and them to change how they drink their wine at dinners at the club and allow for the spanning of multiple meals from the same bottle. I would assume a 'commercial' version of this product wouldn't be too far behind. But, country clubs tend to have crappy wine lists as they cannot afford to purchase wine and hold on to it and justify the cap-ex. If this product proves successful and reliable, my brother can immediately see expanding his locker services to members so they can bring more bottles in. His margins may suffer but he can deploy his capital more effectively and increase his fee income by charging $2.00 a glass or more for extraction. MANY of his members tend to have a 'husband only drinks red and eats steak and wife only eats salad and drinks chardonnay' mentality so wine consumption as a whole is actually lower than it would be due to this. The coravin could be a big hit.
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Coravin demo

Post #199  Postby gwagner » August 10th 2013, 4:06pm

Anyone know where the needle unclog tool is? I couldn't find it. Is it loosely shipped in the box?
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Coravin demo

Post #200  Postby Todd Hamina » August 10th 2013, 10:22pm

The genius of this is that more great wines will end up opened. Sure, you can have a tease but ultimately I believe the wine will pour.

When Monsanto modified plants to handle toxins the jist was less herbicides in the long run, but that's trended quite differently.

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