Novice bread maker looking for help

After seeing some incredible pix of bread on a previous thread, I decided to take up bread-making as a hobby this year.

I started with training wheels . . . a recipe for whole wheat sandwich bread in this month’s Fine Cooking.

Long story short, the bread goes through its initial rise as expected. . . doubling in volume after ~1 - 1.5 hours in an 80 or so degree environment. The recipe than calls for the bread to be punched down, folded a few times and fitted into a 8.5 x 4.5 loaf pan, and then placed in the refrigerator for 8-24 hours, then baked at 350 until internal temp reaches 205 degrees (about 55 minutes). Bread tastes great, but seems dense and never rises above the rim of the loaf pan. It winds up being a squat loaf of ~3.5 inches in height

Some basics on the recipe – hydration level is right at 60% which I understand is fairly low (but typical of recipes I’ve found online). In addition to the basics, the recipe adds nonfat dry milk, 1 oz butter, and some sugar. All leavening is via active dry yeast

Any help is much appreciated

Did it spend any time coming back to room temp after the second (fridge) rise?
FWIW, I’m not much of a bread baker, I’ve made the same loaf once a week for 10 years so I don’t have
a broad view of bread baking, just a very narrow view…

How gentle were you in the punch-down?

Were you Mike Tyson or Hellen Keller?

Get a copy of Beard on Bread - still the most useful guide to breadbaking. I used to bake all of our bread, normally five different types of loaves a week along with croissants and more and that one book got me through it all.

Kevin,

Hope to see you in Seattle sometime soon.

I’ve always had problem with refrigerating bread dough and then getting it to rise properly later. I think that like cooking a roast, it takes a long slow process to get the temperatures even.
Instead of putting the loves in the pan at night, shorten the initial rising time, then knead the bread several times as it warms before putting it in the pans for the final rise. I know this spoils the shortcut, but it does result in more,and more even, volume.

P Hickner

you’re confusing oven spring with rise.

you’ll not get a great oven spring in most situations because the outside of the bread will form a crust before it has a chance to spring. professional ovens correct for this with steam injection prevents the surface from drying out before it has a chance to spring. many recipes call for baking inside a covered vessel at home.

350F also seems really low and may contribute to the above.

bread baking is more about theory and technique than recipes. i recommend a thorough reading and understanding of the tartine bread book before doing anything else.

Thanks for the tips everyone . . .

Re: the punch-down . . . great question!! Think of my technique as an over the hill Rocky Balboa!

I have the Tartine bread book (first installment). I need to spend some more time with this as it is a daunting tome that goes above my head quickly. I have tried to make the starter they introduce in the first few chapters without great success.

Have heard good things about Beard on Bread so going to check that out as well

I spent a day shadowing the owner/baker of Ghost Bakery in western Massachusetts to get a better feel for the technique involved in bread making because I certainly appreciate there is a lot of art and creativity that goes into the process that cannot be replicated in a simple recipe. His “recipe” was very loose and based on feel and centered around a principle of shooting for ~72% hydration that he would vary based on the feel he got from the dough. Hoping to get to that point in a few years where I can use my instincts but will be taking baby steps over the next year or so while I experiment

Peter, actually have a business trip pending for Seattle sometime in the late winter / early spring. Will PM you when a date is confirmed. Going to give your approach a shot tonight.

Interestingly, my kids love the dense loaves of bread that have been coming out of the oven. I just know that this was not the end product I was shooting for so going to continue to tweak and learn from my mistakes

some thoughts:

-try baking it in a preheated pot or pan such as a dutch oven. the lid traps in moisture.
-try to never lower the temp of the dough, always raise temps throughout fermentation. think of it like a rubber balloon: successive inflations and deflations ruin it.
-“punch down” is a poor transliteration. Instead think of stretching the dough like a taffy machine. grab a side and let it hang, then fold gently, rotate 90, let it hang, fold gently, maybe once more. You’re letting gravity do the work, not actually punching.
I agree with Yaacov, I bake at least 375.
-I like Bread, Salt, Yeast, Water by Ken Forkish

Tassajara bread book and use the sponge method. It has one more waiting period but does not involve proofing in the refrigerator, although you can do that if you want. Works great and the biggest problem I have is the bread blowing out the top of the pan. Common error is leaving out the salt. I do not know why, but the salt is crucial to the rise. Also, you can get some pure gluten - Hodgson Mills makes it in a small box that they sell in most large grocery stores. It helps with the rise. We made 10 loaves for the homeless shelter Thanksgiving dinner and the kids had great fun learning, as I described it, the zen of sore muscles caused by kneading bread.

I suggest that you start with a plain white bread first. The more things you add, the harder it is to get it to rise, so learn the craft with plain white and then go to unbleached white and only then move to whole wheat. You go full retard when you make a pumpernickel rye and a three foot long braided Challah, which you must bake in a commercial oven.

PS - If someone says, “I’m gluten free, so please don’t add the extra gluten,” the correct response is “If you have celiac disease, I’m terribly sorry, but you can’t eat the bread regardless of whether I add the extra gluten because there is gluten in the flour itself, and if you do not have celiac disease, do you also refuse to vaccinate your children?”

60% seems a hair low for whole wheat - what % whole wheat did you use? You’ll definitely get less oven spring with a very tight dough. Agree on letting the dough come to room temperature before baking - usually when you do an extended primary fermentation in the fridge, you remove, reshape, put into pan and do a final proof before baking.

this would/could easily take 4+ hours and isn’t necessary. in this recipe - and most - you put in the fridge for an extended time to retard and extend the final proof. several benefits of this include enabling you to bake when you want (anywhere from 6 hours to 36 hours, greater flavor development, and maximal hydration the flours used). once it’s done, you can go directly from the fridge into the oven and get perfect spring if you’ve developed the structure properly. putting aside the inconvenience of the time required, allowing the final loaf to rest for that long after the fridge will result in a very slacky dough which won’t hold its shape in the oven and will result in a pancake-like shape after baking.

FWIW, I have found the following book to be awesome for bread making. I suspect that the Tartine book takes a higher level (and different approach).

[url][/http://www.amazon.com/My-Bread-Revolutionary-No-Work-No-Knead/dp/0393066304url]

I’m advocating bulk fermentation in the fridge, and a final proof outside the fridge. Doesn’t necessarily have to be to room temperature, but the OP sounds like he’s putting the cold baking vessel directly in the oven. THAT I’ve never heard of. As you note, it’s more about technique than recipes.

ahhh…understood. and yes, i think a cold vessel might be problematic but also heats up very quickly.

I love baking in a preheated dutch oven–really even heat, fully cooked bottom, traps in moisture. then you open the lid for he last 10 minutes

Gentlemen, thanks you for all your comments. I have much much to learn!

After having read a few things and experimenting a little, I got this recipe to work with a few tweaks:

  1. added more water so hydration was 64%
  2. Ensured I did not over-proof the dough with the primary fermentation (not sure if I’m totally using the terminology correctly. But, in essence, I think my first few efforts allowed the dough to triple or maybe even quadruple in size on primary fermentation so I think I was out-stripping the yeast from the get go)
  3. I still did a cold ferment but for only 4 hours when the dough had risen above the rim of the pan and seemed to have some structure to it

Instead of letting the dough and pan it was in come to room temp, I put it directly into a 400 degree oven (upped from 350)

End result was much lighter (in density) and had the height I expected

Going to continue experimenting so I can better understand the technique and get a better feel for this whole thing

thanks again

Great conversation!

nice work!

Pictures! If there are no pictures, it didn’t happen.

Egg bread:

PS - The bottom bread was no good. The pizza stone was insufficient to protect from the heat and the bottom crust was burnt.