Sur Lie Aging Tips or lees aging

Hi guys,

I don’t even know if this is the appropriate term or if it only applies to Chardonnay. This being my first year diving into wine making, I have quite a few questions regarding aging on the lees. I have 3 barrels full of Pinot Noir from this years harvest (2X 15-Gallon and 1X 30-Gallon). Two barrels contain clone 777 (one free run, one pressed) from Edna Valley and the 30 gallon has Wadenswil 2A from Los Alamos, SB. So I tested each barrel using Paper Chrom. and all 3 lots appear to be done. I know Paper Ch. can’t detect any Malic Acid under 100mg/L (I believe) so I plan on taking a sample this weekend to Santa Maria-Vinquiry to test for Glucose/Fructose, VA, and Malic. So anyways here are my questions if you don’t mind helping me out…

I would like to minimize rackings and try to be gentle on the wine. So if I keep the wine on its lees and not rack after its confirmed MLF is complete, do I need to periodically stir and re-suspend them back up? Or is this only a style done with chardonnay?

Can anyone offer any tips with lees aging? For example, I imagine if things start to get stinky/funky I should get the wine off the sediment by racking out, cleaning the barrel, then going back in clean. Is this correct? Are there any concerns with this style of wine making? I’ve seen on Beaux Feres Website or Bergstroms Winery Website (can’t remember which) that they press into barrel and don’t touch it until bottling. THey say because of this they end up having lots of dissolved Co2 in the wine which protects it during aging and they get away with lower amounts of So2. This sounds pretty bitchin to me so id like to give this a go…

Another thing is regarding SO2. I was hoping MLF wouldn’t finish for another 6-8 weeks or so. I’ve read lots of arguments on here regarding long malos and how some prefer it b/c it allows tannins to bind to anthocyanins and stabilize color rather than having to add So2 early on and allowing the so2 to bind to phenols. Anyways, is ok to let it ride So2 free for awhile, assuming I’m very diligent with topping? Or should I not take a chance and start protecting it? I imagine the wine is in a good spot. The pH was around 3.4ish for both clones and seeing that MLF finished in about 6 weeks, I imagine the pH hasn’t shifted too high. I’m sure there was a lot less Malic seeing that these grapes were from warmer climate locations…

ok thanks again. any advice would be greatly appreciated! CHeers!

I go to barrel dirty with “free run” wine pumped directly from the fermenter into the barrel. However, when it comes to press wine, I take that to tank and settle. Especially for Pinot, in my opinion, the risk of going directly to barrel with press wine with all its extra proteins, sugar, and everything else is too high.
As for stirring lees, the only time I stir is when I’m making a sulfur add after MF. Too many bugs in there to wake up.
Good luck, Ed
ITB-Angel Vine

I think I have it from Clark Smith that stirring lees will buffer the wine against becoming over-oaked, and with small barrels, that might be of particular concern.
I’ve stirred pinot when it has gotten stinky and when I’ve felt like either the tannins or the acidity wanted softening. I think that stirring can also diminish your CO2 levels and can cost you some precision, so I try to not to do too much of it.

Thanks for the responses! I did settle both free and pressed for 48 hours… Maybe I’ll try pumping free straight to barrel next year, ya why the hell not…

And thanks for the tip regarding stirring if wine starts to get oaky… I was planning on stripping some oak later if necessary using some percarbonate but if stirring helps, I’ll give that a shot rather than using harsh solutions…

So sounds like stirring is more of a chard technique… Thanks again

Percarbonate? Which usually refers to sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate? Which is peroxycarb- a cleaner/sanitizer. Are you referring to sodim carbonate? All that would do is raise your pH. Not sure what your reference to oak is.

Ya I have Proxiclean, which after Lookkng is “sodium percarbonate” … An oxidizing agent… I’ve seen some references online that these are pretty good at breaking in barrels and Leaching out oak flavors… So I thought I might use it for a 24 hour period then follow it up with an acid rinse (24 hour rinse) to neutralize any residue left from the proxiclean, then fill it back up with wine… Haha I’ll admit, thinking about doing this and lacking a good understanding of Chem scares the crap out of me! Well see…

Whoa! Don’t put proxiclean in your barrels if you can avoid it. It’s not the end of the world and I’ve done it, but oak is porous and who knows what you’ll be saving in the staves. You’ll want to soak the crap out of the barrel with citric when you’re done. If you want less oak, use less oak, or rack it into something else when you’ve had enough. No sense in wantonly leaching oak out of a barrel. That stuff costs money (I’ll be happy to trade you some steamed, clean neutral barrels…).

Re: lees stirring. Check the color of the lees, simple rule if the lees are darker than the wine, stirring is fine, if they’re lighter its best to avoid it. This isn’t a hard rule, but if the lees are lighter than the wine, it means the grapes didn’t get to ‘full ripeness’ and you’ll probably get some untoward flavors from lees stirring. But that’s not a hard and fast rule – nothing in winemaking is. Lees stirring will give you texture/flesh and some complexity at expense, per Stewart, of some of the focus. I’m not sure whether that’s because of the CO2, as lees tend to have antioxidant qualities, or because you’re masking some of the precise flavors with leesy flavors. I’ve had some success with particular pinot vineyards stirring lees and have been expanding my use of batonage. As far as awakening bugs go, depends on your wine and your winery – those custom crush places with everyone doing their own work scare me. When I was working out of one, I was very conservative with how I dealt with barrels. Probably good to also consider your pH, which it seems like your in a pretty safe range with. Similarly, watch your wines, but a well made wine at those pH levels, I wouldn’t sweat adding sulfur till weather starts warming up. If you’re finished with ml, it doesn’t hurt to do it earlier, but don’t freak out and jump the gun.

Also, watch your oxidation rates in the half barrel. I’m guessing that the Los Alamos was off a pretty sandy area and my experience with sandy vineyards is that they don’t have the same ‘qi’ (per randall grahm) that more rocky vineyards do and are prone to oxidation. Smaller cooperage will accelerate that.

Best of luck to you.

Wow thanks a lot for all the advice! Regarding the proxiclean, I have been thinking about this for awhile and have totally hesitated b/c it honestly just made me extremely nervous! I do have a 30-gallon flex tank, so If I have to rack the wine from the small barrels out (to avoid over-oaking) ill just blend the free run and pressed to fill the flex tank completely full… would have been cool to keep them separate but screw it, oh well…

Which this brings up another question now… How do I clean my barrels? Can I get away with just taking some filtered chlorine free h20 from my patio hose (warm it up) and slosh it around? I don’t have a steam generator or Ozone (obviously) so is this my only option?

and thank you for the advice regarding the color of the lees… I will remember that for sure! I have about 24 gallons of left over 777 and clone 2a in carboys so ill check the color of the lees in those. I know for a fact that the color of the 2a lees is a light pink color while the wine is a solid ruby color, so that i’ll leave alone! And i’ll def stay on top of SO2 levels when Its confirmed that mlf is complete and top frequently to avoid any risk of oxidation! I think ill wait a couple more weeks before I send out samples to get tested… that way I don’t pay for it and find out i’m above 30mg/L still and have to pay for it again weeks later… that would suck… anyways Thanks again!

About overoaking–
I remember pushing the panic button on the oakiness of an early vintage and being advised by someone more experienced to ride it out in barrel rather than rack it out while the oak was too obvious and have it just stick at that point. I think that was good advice in that instance, and I think it’s particularly worthwhile for someone new to the game to watch the evolution of oak influence for as long as possible. Generally, it’s less linear than you might initially assume and is pretty front-loaded; i.e., I think the new oak barrel influence is usually more obvious at 6 months than at 18 months. So, I wouldn’t rush to pull the wine the first time you start to feel uneasy about it’s oakiness. If it turns out that you do overshoot, start your fining trials with, which can help.

I agree about the Peroxyclean. There was an article in Winebusiness a few years ago advocating its use for barrels, but frankly, that idea kind of creeps me out. Too much chance of getting some of it left behind.

I’ve never heard of the lees color thing. Is that variety dependent? When I was working with Zin, I don’t ever recall seeing any lees darker than the wine.

Zin is weird. If I had my eyes closed, I would swear its a white grape.

I made home wine for years but never had great luck with with less than 30 gal barrels. The smaller ones seemed to go towards va real easy even with topping every 5 days. When we got new ones I would ferment chardonnay in them while the pinots were getting punchdowns to take away some of the oak flavor. The surface area to gallons of wine ratio is really high with the smaller cooperage. However the oak will integrate with time and you probably want to go to bottle with a little more of that flavor than you want in the finished wine as bottle aging will integrate it even more.

As far as lees aging if you used a basket press you should not have to much lees in the barrels as long as you pressed at cap fall with little to no rs to finish in barrel. Basket presses produce much cleaner press juice than bladder or membrane. I press with a wooden slat basket press and settle overnight then go to barrel integrating free run and press together in tank. I rack 0-1 times during aging at 7-9 months once blending is complete. Then they get racked to the bottling tank. If your going to bottle unfiltered make sure not to stir or move the barrels for at least a few months prior to bottling to allow maximum settling. I personally don’t stir whites or Pinot Noir and leave the barrels single stacked for all but one event weekend to let as much of the solids settle with out disturbance as possible. If your racking by gravity and siphon it wont do much to the wine especially if you sparge with gas the container they are going into.

Best of luck you are headed in the right direction with some oak and carboy aged PN with multiple clones.
Did you use any whole clusters? Did you do a wild/native ferment?

Joe, good to hear that a basket press yields a cleaner wine! I pressed 1200 pounds using a 18Liter wooden press… Yes 18Liter… I think next season I’ll def get myself at least a 25-30 gallon basket press…

With the 777 I crushed/de-stemmed it all… No cold soak… Used Assmannhausen, Pressed at dryness after 10 days… It’s very fruit forward and juicy

With the clone 2a I used about 20% whole clusters and used a c/d with the rollers removed… So I got quite a bit of whole berries… I cold soaked using dry ice for 5 days… Fermented to dryness using rc212 (took 6 days), then left it on the skins for another 7 days (flushing headspace with argon and stirring lees daily) pressing on the 18th day. I was trying to gain a little seed tannin to give the wine some more umph…
I’m really liking the clone 2a right now… I feel it’s aromas are more complex with some subtle herbaceousness that Im enjoying!

I think next year I’m going to mix it up again… Maybe try a 100% whole cluster batch and a native ferment batch… Though I imagine a yeast I’ve inoculated with in the past will finish the job right? I want to keep experimenting because Im still trying to figure out what I want my style to be in the future… Do I want to make more fruit forward early drinking stuff or something with more structure and needs to lay down for awhile before consuming… Anyways I’m having a lot of fun!

Thanks for pointing out your handling techniques… I think I want to do what your doing… Minimize racking… So I think I’ll take your advice on the oak integration and just let it ride all year long… And only gravity rack…

Stewart, good point! I’m doing this hoping to learn something! Your right that I should keep my wine in the barrel long enough to see how it changes… I think your right in saying that the barrels oak influence is a non linear relationship… I’ve read on quite a few coopers websites that every wine placed into a brand new barrel goes thru a “woodiness” stage where the wine is super saturated with oak tannins that is tastes like a 2x4… Then after some more time the oak better integrates itself into the wine and the woodiness attenuates so they advise not to jump the gun and transfer out during that “woodiness” period but let it ride… I believe I read this on the Demptos Cooperage site

YMMV but I say don’t stir post ML unless you want more tannins, usually not good tannins either. There are several articles describing lees/pinot methods in the trades. Leave on lees to build body but don’t stir. And by post ML I mean pretty much the couple of months after primary as we go through ML right away.

I’ve used a 30 gallon barrel for a Cab in the past, and got away with only racking off gross lees prior to going into barrel. Once MLF completed, I just topped and made sure SO2 levels were fine, never stirred. It turned out great.

This year I’m doing a more delicate Pinot and have the same question as you as to racking off fine lees. It seems to be a winemaker’s decision more than a hard and fast rule. My plan is to be non-interventionist unless I taste something wrong. The anecdote I often hear is: “don’t mess with it unless you know what you’re doing”, and I don’t know what I’m doing!

On testing, definitely go with Vinquiry. For several years I tried to do all the tests myself, but with the cheap kits its often difficult to be accurate as you point out. And all the chemicals seem to expire each year anyway so you’re in close to a Vinquiry panel every year anyway. I’d confirm MLF is complete (via Vinquiry) then get it on SO2 ASAP.

Rama, I’m doing the same… all 3 barrels of mine finished MLF weeks ago… I plan to leave them alone for as long as possible aside from topping every 2 weeks… eventually I know I will have to swap out pinot from my brand new med + toast 50Liter barrel… the oak is starting to creep up… fortunately I have 15 gallons of unoaked pinot sitting in carboys & plenty of pinot in 5 gallon corny kegs I’m using for topping… haven’t stirred or anything… I’ve read some interesting articles on stirring if oak begins to overtake the fruit… so I may give it a shot if the 15 gallon barrels I have start getting loco (crazy!) and give too much woody characteristics… the 30 gallon barrel I have hasn’t unleashed any oak flavors yet (and its been 3 months in barrel), this may be due to the fact that this was a whole cluster batch… time will tell…