Pump over vs punch down for Pinot

Tim_Corliss · December 5, 2012, 7:52am

Wondering what are the impacts/ effects to one pump over a day vs one punch down per day on Pinot.

With 2011 I did one punch down per day. In 2012 I did one punch down per day then “pumped over” by taking 5 one gallon buckets out and pouring back on top of a 60 gallon stainless tank. Decided to experiment with this after hearing some burgundy houses use the pump over technique.

Linda_Baehr · December 6, 2012, 3:22pm

I can’t imagine that doing what you did (gently) as opposed to sending the must through an actual pump would make any discernible difference.

Bob_Wood · December 6, 2012, 8:14pm

So, Linda . . . you’d advise against one of these?

Joe_Webb · December 7, 2012, 9:14pm

I am not a fan of pump overs as you can’t use whole clusters or berries, or if you do the don’t stay whole for long.
Not sure bucketing would cause the same issue.
Why only one punch down a day thru the whole ferment?

Beau_Carufel · December 20, 2012, 5:20am

We did up to 100 percent whole cluster on some lots this year and still managed to pump over. From what I could tell, it was the volume of juice that got pumped that was diminished. That and it helps that we have a metal torpedo we stick into the fermenter bin to facilitate getting juice out without disturbing the clusters. Worked fine.

Tim_Corliss · December 20, 2012, 6:43am

Thank you, super helpful. That helps me get my arms around what gentle really means. So, bucket pour overs are about the same gentle handling as by hand punch downs. Thank you!

If I did the pump over with a diaphram pump, is that a little less harsh than other pumps?

Tim_Corliss · December 20, 2012, 6:46am

I’m not a fan of wines that are concentrated and/or overly extracted, so that was my thought line. Not sure what that line might be based on the method used.

At what point do you cross the line with hand punch downs, or bucket pour overs, pump overs with a diaphram pump or other pumps?

Tim_Corliss · December 20, 2012, 6:47am

Did you do amything to create some juice? Like walk on the clusters before fermentation?

Linda_Baehr · December 20, 2012, 1:48pm

Yes, diaphragm pumps are more gentle since they are just meant for juice. You really don’t want skins/seeds going through them, so you would have to have some sort of a screen to filter those out.

ericleehall · December 20, 2012, 3:03pm

We punch down whole berries by hand in one ton MacroBins 3 times per day, after a 5 day (or so) cold soak, then inoculate with BGY, and a little Assmenhousen.

Then after a week or so it, and a very light pressing it all goes into primarily François Frères barrels of varying kinds and ages, for 11 to 16 months, and we rack once in Feb after we are sure that Malolactic fermentation is done, and we try to use light sulfur, and are absolutely obsessive about topping.

This is a variation of a somewhat “standard procedure” for Pinot Noir up here in Healdsburg, derived from Burt Williams (although he used Stainless Steel Dairy Fermentors)…

We think it’s the best way to achieve the extraction & flavors we like, in which I’d like the wine to taste fresh like it does at the moment we are destemming it…with a little vanilla oak assist, and a nice round mouthfeel.

john_holdredge · December 21, 2012, 4:14pm

Tim- It isn’t the pump per se that is bad- the key is not running skins and seeds through. A common tool to achieve this is a round submersible screen that one can stick into the must so it fills with juice. Then, one can put the hose into that screen to just pull juice. Assuming a good pump, it isn’t super aggressive (you can pick up DO with poor fittings etc. I just don’t know why you would do that- unless you have a fermentation where the yeast are stressed towards the end and a bit reductive (and a little pumpover can give them that little breath of air they need)- for Pinot, punchdowns are a very gentle approach. Pumps are a useful tool to deal with things like that, but for Pinot, less is better. But I’d agree with whoever it was that posted- why one punchdown a day? During fermentation you want to achieve extraction (to a point). I’d be punching down a lot more than that (depending on taste).

Stewart_Johnson · December 21, 2012, 7:04pm

john holdredge:

Tim- It isn’t the pump per se that is bad- the key is not running skins and seeds through. A common tool to achieve this is a round submersible screen that one can stick into the must so it fills with juice. Then, one can put the hose into that screen to just pull juice. Assuming a good pump, it isn’t super aggressive (you can pick up DO with poor fittings etc. I just don’t know why you would do that- unless you have a fermentation where the yeast are stressed towards the end and a bit reductive (and a little pumpover can give them that little breath of air they need)- for Pinot, punchdowns are a very gentle approach. Pumps are a useful tool to deal with things like that, but for Pinot, less is better. But I’d agree with whoever it was that posted- why one punchdown a day? During fermentation you want to achieve extraction (to a point). I’d be punching down a lot more than that (depending on taste).

I think the main reason to do a pumpover with the screened wand is that when you have a lot of whole cluster, the first few punchdowns can be nearly impossible. I’m 200 lbs and can put my full weight on punchdown paddle without getting anywhere at the outset of fermentation. I’d rather tread those first few on whole cluster lots, but I don’t think the pumpover is a bad alternative.

Tim_Corliss · December 23, 2012, 7:19am

john holdredge:

Tim- It isn’t the pump per se that is bad- the key is not running skins and seeds through. A common tool to achieve this is a round submersible screen that one can stick into the must so it fills with juice. Then, one can put the hose into that screen to just pull juice. Assuming a good pump, it isn’t super aggressive (you can pick up DO with poor fittings etc. I just don’t know why you would do that- unless you have a fermentation where the yeast are stressed towards the end and a bit reductive (and a little pumpover can give them that little breath of air they need)- for Pinot, punchdowns are a very gentle approach. Pumps are a useful tool to deal with things like that, but for Pinot, less is better. But I’d agree with whoever it was that posted- why one punchdown a day? During fermentation you want to achieve extraction (to a point). I’d be punching down a lot more than that (depending on taste).

John, thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom with me.

My thought was to try and enhance texture as much as I can while lowering the risk of over extraction (or ending up with a wine with density or concentration). Texture is at the top of my list. For me, a wine with texture makes me happier than a wine with more diversity of flavors.

Where do you see the balance with the number of hand punch downs ( or gentle pump overs) with those goals in mind?

Stewart Johnson:

john holdredge:

Tim- It isn’t the pump per se that is bad- the key is not running skins and seeds through. A common tool to achieve this is a round submersible screen that one can stick into the must so it fills with juice. Then, one can put the hose into that screen to just pull juice. Assuming a good pump, it isn’t super aggressive (you can pick up DO with poor fittings etc. I just don’t know why you would do that- unless you have a fermentation where the yeast are stressed towards the end and a bit reductive (and a little pumpover can give them that little breath of air they need)- for Pinot, punchdowns are a very gentle approach. Pumps are a useful tool to deal with things like that, but for Pinot, less is better. But I’d agree with whoever it was that posted- why one punchdown a day? During fermentation you want to achieve extraction (to a point). I’d be punching down a lot more than that (depending on taste).

I think the main reason to do a pumpover with the screened wand is that when you have a lot of whole cluster, the first few punchdowns can be nearly impossible. I’m 200 lbs and can put my full weight on punchdown paddle without getting anywhere at the outset of fermentation. I’d rather tread those first few on whole cluster lots, but I don’t think the pumpover is a bad alternative.

What differences (if any) do you see with the finished wine with one that goes though hand punch downs vs gentle pump overs in your experience? (Especially for wines with 25% or more whole clusters?)

Stewart_Johnson · December 27, 2012, 6:06am

I haven’t done enough pumpover to have any real results. The vintage where I tried it turned out to be my best, but it was just a matter of expediency. After a couple of pumpovers, I moved back to punchdowns when it became more practical. I doubt that it made any difference.

Tim_Corliss · January 6, 2013, 7:40am

Thank you Stewart. I think I’ll keep using both and experiment with more than one punch down or pump over per day.

Ira_Kreft · January 27, 2013, 2:31pm

We do a combination of pumpovers and punchdowns on Pinot noir fermenting in macrobins and employing native yeast fermentation. The vast majority are pumpovers employing a torpedo screen. We do morning and night, and during the course of the fermentation, we did only 3 or 4 punchdowns. While pumpovers are definitely more work (and I get the privilege of moving the torpedo screen between fermenters along with the pump and hoses), it promotes a healthier fermentation, less reduction and softer tannins. With a good pump and doing only long enough on each fermenter to mix the wine and break up the cap, I don’t find that it beats up the wine. In fact, the Pinot noir is quite delicate with fine grained tannins.

Beau_Carufel · February 1, 2013, 1:24am

Sorry about the late response…What we did to create a bit of juice was run the whole clusters up an elevator then drop them into the fermenters. Seemed to help out with creating the juice, then once pumpovers started, some of the juice from the bottom of the bins would suspend within the greater mass of whole clusters.