Concrete fermentors/aging vessels

I have been getting a lot more questions about concrete lately in the tasting room. I am not interested in it at all. I deflect questions for many reasons and personal experiences as well as lack of transparency of the industry of making wine tanks.

I have been to seminars, and tasted a few trials of concrete vs., neutral oak or stainless or flextank. I have inquired to a few producers of concrete tanks who claim minerality is added. I have not got a answer as to minerals are added, or what the tanks are made of, or how many vintages the minerality will be added.

I do think fermenting is very different than aging when it comes to concrete. Thermal mass distribution of temperature vs. aging long term in with a acidic alcoholic mildly corrosive liquid.

Are there any other food products that are aged/stored in concrete? I can’t seem to find any other than for water storage(cost savings vs other options) with the recommendation of not letting it sit to long and to size the vessel accordingly.

My personal history with concrete is that my fathers construction company specialized in mechanical gates and concrete (tilt up buildings for processing fruits, retrofitting storage plants to process fruit by adding floor drains, exposed aggregate, high psi installations for light towers, colored walkways, etc. There are a loads of corrosive chemicals in the mixes I worked with as the only non workers comp eployee and the producers dont seem to what to disclose what makes there mix different/safer.

Joe have you spoken with Steve Edmonds? If not send him a PM as I believe he has some connection with the industry.

Well, not to be too obvious, but corn and grains are often stored in concrete silos.

Eric Texier uses concrete tanks and is very thoughtful about how he makes wine, so maybe PM him as well.

Steve used to be a rep for one of the concrete tank companies but no longer is.

We got a concrete tank last year at Harrington Wines and have used it for both fermentation and aging. Bryan Harrington likes the results so much he’s getting another one this year.

That said, I think the minerality claim is nothing but sales BS. Whatever mineral character you may find comes from the grapes/wine and not from the vessel.

Could wine possibly leach something from the concrete that gives the impression of minerality?

If you don’t treat the tank with an acid solution to neutralize the limestone in the concrete you’ll be likely to encounter a strong concrete taste, and also a significant rise in pH. The rinse I used was 30% tartaric in water. I painted on 5 coats, and it worked just fine.
The wines I made in that tank were quite transparent, far more so than they’d have been in smaller oak, and much less reductive than if they’d been raised in stainless.

I had heard different versions of this technique. One producer lost his first wine he did in the tank as there were no instructions like that given when he bought it.

Any idea what it is that leaches from the concrete into the wine to move pH if not treated? Have you had any issues down the line or just do this on your first wine and your good to go? Tartaric is the main acid in wine so I would assume that layer would dissolve into the wine and/or over time some wine would seep past the neutralized portion at some point down the road.

Ken part of the minerality talk also referenced that concrete really only lasts 15-30 years. I just don’t understand what about them would give them any lifespan less than forever like you get with Stainless, unless thats when they stop imparting “minerality”.

Sounds like a good sales pitch to get you to buy a new tank after 15 years.

Could that be an accounting sort of answer? In those terms, there’d be a number for a stainless tank’s lifespan, too.

Joe, the limestone in the concrete makes it (the concrete) alkaline, the tartaric reacts with that, creating a neutral surface (given sufficient tartaric in the rinse). I never added any after the first treatment. When you put grape juice or wine in the tank, after the treatment, the pH of the juice or wine should be fairly low, and stay that way. I used the tank through seven vintages and it’s been fine each year.

Has anyone sourced a tank from a standard precast producer? I’m starting a small winery in NY state, and the eggs from Sonoma are too expensive and difficult to ship, so I am talking to some casters around here to see if they’d be willing to work up custom molds for some very straightforward cylindrical tanks for me.

I’m sure the requirements for acid/alcohol storage are different than for water, but does anyone have any knowledge or experience with the actual concrete blends that would be safe to use in contact with wine?

Thanks!

I thought part of the deal with the eggs was the shape as well? That it allows for a constant movement of the wine due to the curves and no corners. A cylinder would negate that no?

Of course but the material and it’s properties are another benefit, and concrete has been used since long before the eggs became popular. The egg producers also make many shapes aside from eggs.