What do you feel the back end of the fermentation gives you?

Do you feel you are getting alot more flavor or just color set and tannins? What has been your experience?

I take this to mean “extended maceration.” Certainly more tannic volume – less angular than early tannins, but lots of it. I have heard the theory that by the time an extended maceration gets through its really lean and mean period, it’s early yeast autolysis that’s starting to have an effect – both protein fining of tannins and contributing polysaccharides. Even so, you may find yourself thinking about chucking an egg white at the extended maceration lot, and if you’re opposed to that idea, that might not be the route for you. Extended maceration lots will consistently skew more toward earthy flavors and show less fruit. There’s more depth and length to the the extended maceration lots, but early press lots have more verve.

I am not a scientist by any means. Having said this, I always believed that extended lees contact allowed tannins to soften and the wine (if of the appropriate varietal) to benefit from any exposure to oxygen exchange via the barrel. If aged in bottle, the environment should still contribute to tannin development in an anaerobic environment.

Now, if the OP’s question refers to the adding of press juice/wine to the original ferment, the astringency and color would receive the desired boost intended by its addition… I think.

Drew, it’s not adding juice, it’s allowing the wine to continue sitting on the skins after the alcohol fermentation has completed to further extract tannin/color/whatever.

In 2015, the winery I was at went for 28 day macerations. The wines were surprisingly not as tannic as I expected and had flavors I’d associate with oak but having yet to see any oak. Some of the best tanks tasted like finished wine as they went to barrel. These were all fully destemmed, high end Bordeaux varieties in Napa.

Thanks for the clarification (Ha!) Nolan!

I have read of super-extended macerations (120+ days on the skins), not to complete the fermentation process, but to soften tannins. The trial appeared, in this case, to follow a parabolic curve wherein the “wine” became insanely tannic, then gradually smoothed out to achieve - in this particular winemaker’s case - a wine of unprecedented finesse.

Again, I don’t know why I am even participating in this discussion: I have no qualifications, save for one miserable attempt at making Pruno. :neutral_face:

I seem to get more flavor and tannin. Working with PN I like to get everything in the grape and that the included stems have to offer durring the fermentation. I don’t press that hard and use a wooden slatted basket press which is very gentile so I am not going to gain much in the press cycle in regards to tannin. As my percentage of whole clusters went up from 2012 (33%), 2013 (40%), 2014 (50%), I found cap fall happening almost a week later. 2012 average length of fermentation was 21-26 days, in 2014 that was 28-33 days. Even though harvest has been earlier and with warmer ambient temperatures the time on skins has extended all with no cooling or heating. I have been preferring longer fermentation times, or maybe its the additional stems I prefer, or drought years hard to say exactly.

I think the tannins polymerize faster when there is no so2 present in the wine. I don’t add any until malo is done. This allows more of the tannins to soften early in the wines life. I am also holding the wines in bottle 18-20 months before release to allow both tannin and acid to soften additionally before release. The 2014’s I released earlier and I can definitely tell peoples perceptions of the young wines are different. Perceiving more structure similar to the comments from barrel tasting with folks the last couple vintages.

Joe, what’s your peak fermentation temp? Do you think a warmer ferment would polymerize the tannin more effectively?

I do think so. We rsnge 92-97* peak cap temperatures for a day or so. Heat also lowers final alcohol and va for us.

And then what about thermal vin on the finish? I’ve seen it done but never tried it myself. I’d consider it for cab but we don’t make that variety.

In doing some tannin analysis awhile back, extended fermentations actually led to lower total tannin levels. The thought is that they reach an equilibrium in liquid and don’t go any higher, and actually fine themselves.

Cheers.

With Pinot Noir and Gamay Noir, I like to go about 3 weeks on the skins, sometimes a bit longer but I find too much bitterness for my tastes if I go 4 weeks. Generally speaking of course. This means I’m going several days, maybe a week past active fermentation. Caps never fall (ok one did this past year), things do get a little soupy and I barely wet the cap each day, just want to draw out a little more earthy, cured quality if you will. Works for me.

You’ve probably heard this before, but it’s worth repeating that the progression of the tannic impression isn’t linear. It gets a lot worse (lean, hard and panic inducing) before it gets better. Consequently, it’s advisable to make your first go-round with extended maceration a small lot with which you’re willing to take a leap of faith. If you do it with the main lot, you run the risk of losing your nerve as you see the whole vintage going to hell and pressing at the nadir. I think most of us are more comfortable pushing through that stage after having seen a few lots come out successfully on the other side.