help with VA

This year I ended up with more fruit than I wanted (Pinot sourced from Oregon since my Cali friends were already struggling with yields), so I picked up a 60L Spiedel to augment my two 120L barrels. They all contain the same wine straight from pressing, and underwent the same inoculated malo.

Since the Spiedel had literally zero headspace and no evaporation, I didn’t bother tasting it along the way. However today when I sampled it in advance of adding SO2 post MLF, I was shocked to find it has a noticeable amount of volatile acidity. The 2 barrels, luckily, are completely fine.

The Spiedel (http://www.morebeer.com/products/speidel-plastic-fermenter-60l-159-gal.html) had a good seal- when I push down on the lid, the airlock lifts. So I’m at a loss as to why that lot had VA while the barrels were fine. I sanitized it prior to use with StarSan.

Needless to say, I’ll be tasting every container going forward, but I’m still distraught as to how this happened. I suspect oxygen, but between the zero headspace and the less permeable walls than barrels, I’m at a loss. Any ideas?

Rama,

What are the characteristics of the VA you’re noticing? More ethyl acetate/acetone, or more acetic? Over the years, I’ve noticed that lots of experienced winemakers and wine collectors mistake mild oxidation (acetaldehyde) for VA. I’m hoping that’s what happened with you and that SO2 will help bind a lot of that up. Fingers crossed.

Also, did you take a sample from under the surface of the wine? Every fall, right at the end of ML and just post ML, film yeasts try to get going in the wine, since there’s no SO2 yet. I’m also hoping you only smelled/tasted the surface of the wine, and that underneath it’s fine.

+1 what Ed said.

I think it was more ethyl acetate/acetone. It reminded me of an over-the-hill barleywine (strong beer) that was 10 years old and tasted maderized, if that helps.

I pulled the sample from the top inch, didn’t notice a surface film (though it was just a glance through the bung hole), or any browning in the sample. Its since been gently mixed to incorporate the SO2 I added yesterday afternoon, but I haven’t tasted it again. How long would it take for the SO2 to bind with the offensive flavors, if that’s what’s going on?

Thanks Ed and Todd.

You’re probably okay, Rama. Maderized is much more acetaldehyde than anything else. SO2 starts to bind with that right away. Plus, the mixing will also help. Try it again whenever you want, it should put your mind at ease.

I think that if you’re battling a surface film yeast, it pays to hit it harder with SO2 than might be your normal practice. A normal add may bind up enough of the extra aldehydes that surface film yeast produces to make the wine taste better, but you’ll be left with less free SO2 than you were expecting, and the problem can return. Unless you can measure free SO2 real closely, I’d nuke it at the outset rather than feel your way along with incremental adds.

Stewart, I was wondering about that- thanks for the suggestion. I tasted it again tonight and while its not as offensive as yesterday, there’s still something off there. I’ll give it another 30ppm tonight, and measure SO2 and taste again tomorrow.

BTW, how high is too high on SO2 ppm in a red wine? I’ve read very high rates could cause bleaching, and I presume at some point it’ll be perceptible during tasting, but if you stay below both of those thresholds what’s the downside?

I usually reckon half the add binds up right away. If you put 30ppm in after 30ppm the other day that could be good. But if you’re already battling film yeast that may deplete your free so2 quicker.

The SO2 additions have largely corrected the problem- thanks everyone! I still get a small whiff from the bung, but not in the sample pulled to a glass. It could be due to lid contamination, so I’ll be pulling it off and sanitizing it to see if that corrects the problem.

You guys were right, the first SO2 addition was completely bound up, presumably due to the reaction with acetaldehyde, so I needed to give it another dose. Maybe this is in my head, but it seemed when I tasted the early samples, my ears very quickly felt warm! I don’t flush with alcohol consumption, so am wondering if that was a reaction to acetaldehyde?

Good news: the acetaldehyde aroma is completely gone after a third SO2 add. Thanks everyone!

However the off tank as well as the seemingly fine barrels have bound up A LOT of the SO2. The off tank at ate up approx. 120ppm and the barrels around 90ppm. For my pH, I’ve been adding around 30-40ppm free, but after each addition (using effervescent SO2 so I know its well incorporated) and retesting after a couple of days, the free SO2 comes in around 5-10ppm. Today will mark my 4th SO2 addition, so thought I better get a sanity check with you guys as I’ve never experienced this before. Normal?

These were the results from Vinquiry 3 weeks ago. I’ve since added a touch more tartaric and the SO2 but nothing else.

Alcohol 14.82 %V/V NIR
pH 3.64 Autotitrator
Titratable Acidity 0.599 g/100mL Autotitrator
Free SO2 None Detected Segmented Flow
Total SO2 None Detected Segmented Flow
Volatile Acidity 0.075 g/100mL Segmented Flow
Glucose + Fructose 14 mg/100mL Enzymatic
Malic Acid None Detected Enzymatic

Rama,

That’s surprising the results are coming back as no free or total SO2 detectable. When you say you added the effervescent kind, what brand? Was it the tablet form or the powder form? Did you stir it in yourself, or did you rely on the effervescence to do the stirring? The good news is it smells better!

This is an edit: I just went back and re-read your post from today and I also looked back in the thread. I guess those results are from before your first SO2 addition? It would be interesting to see what the free and totals are after all these additions. If you can stay somewhere in the mid teens or higher on free SO2 on a consistent basis, you can be pretty sure you’ve taken care of the oxidation problem.

Ed,

correct those numbers are from prior to any SO2 additions. I provided them in case it was helpful in determining what’s happening here. Both VA and residual sugar as I understand can both be responsible for binding sulfite, but both numbers look low to me.

I believe its reached equilibrium now, as it seems the free SO2 is finally detectable. I’ll test again in the next day or two to verify, though I’m confused by the amount of sulfite being bound. In particular in the barrels as they didn’t have any detectable acetaldehyde.

The sulfite product I’m using is Efferbarrique: http://www.enartisvinquiry.com/download/MSDS/Effergran5,%20Efferbarrique.pdf



Pinot eats up SO2 like it’s going out of style, or more like it eats it like Californians ate foie gras before California banned it for a few years. Syrah is the opposite. You do a 25 ppm first addition to a Syrah then check it the next week, the free is 28. Don’t worry about your Pinot going through a lot of SO2, all Pinots with an average or higher than average pH do. But when you do get the analyses done again, test the total too. You never see the total add up to all the SO2 you’ve added, but sometimes it’s close. There’s great variability in those packets of Efferbarrique and similar products. I like using them because of the safety factor, both in storage and when using it, but I never see the same results as when I used to make my own liquid SO2 by bubbling SO2 gas into water in a keg. That was some toxic shit!

at 120 you are not even half way to the max though you probably won’t like the result of the max TSO2. Keep topped, gas if you have to. Wine is amazingly resilient. Pinot can be an elephant but you should come out right in the end now that you caught it early. I like to stay low 20s. Your RS is low and I wouldn’t expect anything to be happening there since ML is done. Maybe ML eating some sugars creating some VA if it was higher before it went through.

Is that OSHA knocking? [wow.gif]

Thanks Ed and Evan. I’ve made Syrah and Cabernet in the past, but I’m still learning the ropes with Pinot. Finicky little mistress!