Oak rate of extraction

I’ve got 2 barrels with 2 different wines in them. 1 barrel is new, the other is on its 3rd year. My goal is to evenly oak both wines by swapping the wine between the barrels at some point during elevage. For the sake of easy math, let’s say the plan is to leave the wine in barrels for 10 months. At which point would I have to swap the wines in order to impart an even amount of oak to them both? I suspect its not 5 months since the first 5 months will have more soluble compounds available than the second 5 months, but I can’t find any information on this rate of extraction.

cheers,
Rama

It’s just a guess, but I’d switch them just a few months in. The first wine in the new barrel should take on its oak pretty quick. Taste and see for yourself but I’d think another month or two, then switch them. Good luck.

Thanks, I’m thinking of swapping it near the new year. They currently taste and smell night and day different, to the point where I feel like they should be swapped now. But I’m trying to avoid “flipping the burger” too early, and introducing excess oxygen.

Are you planning to blend them before bottling? Or will they be 2 separate wines?

My plan is to have at least 3 different bottlings depending on how the blending sessions go: a bottling of barrel 1 by itself, one of barrel 2 by itself, and a third of the best blend (or blends). While the blend will likely be the majority by volume, I would like each of the two single barrel bottlings to be as close to each other elevage wise as possible.

The oak will flavor up the wine pretty fast. I would think 2-3 months would be the time frame for what your looking for. When tasting I would think more about the non tannin component’s of a barrel as they seem to extract faster. I think you will get more “oak flavor” in the first wine and more tannin in the second one that goes into that barrel.

What kind of barrel/forest/toast did you get? If higher toast I would think the flavor may impact even faster. Many of my new Remond Bertranges MTL’s hardly show in the wine after 11 months to integrate certain blocks Pommard 05 especially.

Oxygen pick up should not be an issue as long as you have some free so2 in the wine. Not sure what your racking with or racking to but if your worried about 02 pickup gassed tanks and barrels, cold temps to keep dissolved co2 in solution, and gravity will be your friend.

I’ve got 2 medium toast Hungarian barrels, from the Zemplin Forest. These are supposedly tight grained Quercus Peterea/Sessile oak. They are 30 gallon capacity BTW, so higher surface ratios than you pros.

Just sent in samples for a Vinquiry panel, and as soon as I see MLF is done I’m going to add SO2, so definitely before the first racking. If malo isn’t done, I’ll resort to an aquarium heater down the bung to finish it off before racking.

On racking, I considered purchasing an engine hoist so I could raise/lower each barrel to syphon by gravity, but opted for an easier to store and less disaster prone self priming diaphragm pump. I used it for the first time to pump the settled wine post pressing, and it seemed relatively gentle, especially for that stage of the wine. Any reason I should be worried about the pump churn at this later stage of the wine?

The smaller barrels will impart the flavor faster and add more of it over the aging. If malo is not done then you should have sufficient dissolved co2 in the wine to move it. If you are concerned you could add 10ppm so2 before moving it, that wont be enough to slow malo and will likely bind up pretty quick. Slow malo in the presence of no free So2 will be good for tannin polymerization and keep your so2 totals low.

The pump should be fine. I don’t really use them much but diaphragm are the best imo. Just go as slow as it will let you.

Thanks for the tips, Joe.

I have been thinking about this, and went back a few times to re-read.

What type of grape are you working with that you will only have 10 months in barrel?

I have only made Cabernet. I have only used a 30 gallon new French oak barrel on a newly pressed wine once, and man-oh-man, did that baby take on oak! The oak surface touching that small amount of juice is not a small consideration.

I am not sure of your goals in this venture, but I am not sure why you would want to introduce that much new oak flavor to all of that wine in that short a period of time. I would move the newly oaked wine into a neutralish vessel, keep the 3 year old-barrel right where it is, and then do some trials.

Again, without more details, it is hard to talk about. But that is a lot of oak flavor you are considering putting on that wine. You can’t undo it after you have done it. You can become, carefully, perhaps a little more aggressive over time with some taste trials.

I have no idea what you’re suggesting here. You make it sound like 10 months in barrel is too short, but then you also suggesting that’s too much oak? How long did you leave that wine in your new 30 gallon barrel?

I’m thinking 3-4 months for the first wine through it, and 6-7 months for the second wine through it- before moving to the 3rd year barrel for a total of 10 months elevage in barrel. That doesn’t seem unreasonable considering the surface to liquid ratio is introducing oxygen faster as well.

I’m making pinot, one barrel is Pommard and one is 115. While the elevage isn’t my preference, I don’t have the luxury of extra previously used barrels in 30 gallon capacity, and I don’t like the idea of picking up one used by someone else with an unknown lineage. Having made wine 5 times prior in glass carboys, I have no interest conducting elevage in vessels that don’t allow micro ox.

Rama - I have only made Cabernet, as I said.

Typically, my wines spend 20-22 months in barrel.

The vintage I used that new 30 gallon barrel…I know it was put on at press. I know the wine it held took on a lot of oak flavor. Perhaps that is what you want, and that is a personal/style issue that has no right answer. You asked a question…I am certainly not looking to be in any way contentious in inputting some of my own experience.

When I look at a barreling program for a given vintage, I look at the entire picture: how many new barrels, how many once-used, and so forth. And then I taste and taste again, and then I move things around. I also look to my next vintages down the road to try to project what my “used” barrel availability might be for those upcoming vintages.

So your wine spent 6-7 times longer in the new oak barrel than I’m planning to do?

I’m certainly not looking for a lot of oak, though not completely neutral either. Last year I did 10 months elevage in a 2nd year barrel, and while I’m still a novice tasting young wine and understanding how it may taste with age, I did like the results.

That second year barrel, and particularly if it is a 60 gallon one, is a totally different animal than the 30 gallon one you have. I am not the expert in this at all…just answering the questions you asked with my limited knowledge of things related.

Since that experience, I have not invested in any more new half barrels. If I recall correctly, the cost of that barrel was not half the cost of a similar 60 gallon barrel (I guess they are really more like 59…whatever).

That second year barrel was a 30 gallon as well, and it is now my third year barrel. (The first year it was used, the wine was a cab and spent 5 months in it before finishing in glass carboys). 22 months in a 30 gallon new barrel sounds like a recipe for bourbon!

If I could have my way, I’d like to try elevage for 2+ years in near neutral foudres. But even 60 gallon barrels are not practical for a garagiste like me- its more wine than I want and moving them without a forklift is too hard. So rotating through 30 gallon barrels of various ages seems to be the best compromise.

I have used new 30g barrels in the past and still have a few neutrals in use at the winery. They pump out oak quickly and it really easy to overdue. You said Pinot, is it a Burgundy half barrel? I ask because Burg 30’s are rare and if its a Bdx barrel I would be even more careful. The flavors of these barrels are usually quite different from each other and Bdx oak is potentially not a good fit for Pinot. Don’t pick a time, do it by taste and aim low. You can’t remove it later. Also, a 3 year old barrel is not neutral yet especially in the small size. I would suggest you consider adding a 30 gallon Flextank into the mix to allow more flexibility. You will need that capacity for racking/bottling anyway if you have two full barrels. I would not expect you to be able to keep a new 30g full over the course of one year with two wines unless you really like oaky wine. Barrel cleaning, gassing, storage, rehydrating is a skill you need to own anyway.

Very nice commentary, Steve. I’m afraid I offended Rama with my comments…perhaps I just did not express them well. You have said what I would like to say, for sure. Main thoughts? You can add more later, but you cannot take it out once it is added. And “neutral” is in the eye of the beholder…er…winemaker…taster, and very barrel-specific/dependent.

Just saw a post from Mel Knox on another thread. I think he knows more about barrels than all of us put together. I’ll see if I can get him to join in.

Steve, the barrels are both Hungarian, which are shorter and stouter than Bdx barrels IIRC.

Doing it by taste is cool, but aiming low won’t cut it considering the current game plan is to swap wines between the 2 barrels at the mid way (taste wise) point. If the consensus here is that’s not possible, I’m open to altering the plan. I get that oak levels are a matter of taste, and definitely won’t have my feelings hurt if anyone here says “3 months in a new 30 gal barrel followed by 7 months in a year 3 barrel is too much oak!”, or “3 months in a year 3 barrel followed by 7 months in a mostly new barrel is too much oak!” If I read your post right, you’re saying any combination here will result in too much oak? (assuming that, yes, I do not like wine that’s too oaky.)

Yup, I get a year 3 barrel isn’t neutral. The rule of thumb I’ve read was year 1 is 50%, years 2/3 are each about 25%, after which its effectively neutral.

I’ve considered a Flextank, but am really trying to minimize the LARGE equipment I have for this hobby, as long as its not compromising the quality of product. For racking/bottling, I have 5 32gallon primary fermenters that can be used.

This is my 3rd year with barrels, and so far haven’t had any issues with VA, Brett, or the like. Cleaning, storage, rehydrating are beginning to feel more comfortable to me.

Not offended at all Merrill, I appreciate your advice here though I don’t think I understood what you were implying. Your elevage sounded much longer than mine, maybe I misunderstood.

I certainly don’t have a lot of experience on this matter or wouldn’t be asking everyone here. The beauty of winemaking is that its not following a recipe, though that certainly makes it challenging for us newbies!

Edit: just saw the suggestion to bring in Mel Knox. Sounds good, I could use all the help I can get!