Hi, all. First post but a long-time wine lover. Its gotten to the point where I’ve had enough of making wine on my own that I needed to talk to others who do the same. I’ve loved reading books on old Burgundy and about different traditional techniques that the winemakers used.
I’d love to ask, what old school, traditional techniques do you know of or use in winemaking? I’ve used egg whites for fining and love the simplicity of old world techniques. I’d love to learn what others are doing to stick to the old ways of making an artisan wine.
Shane, he is sometimes a little difficult to get in touch with, but I think that a guy named Ray Walker of Maison Ilan in Burgundy is really tuned into the things that interest you, and the two of you may have read many of the same old books. You may not find all that many winemakers reading old Burgundy books and discussing technique in this forum, but the Cellar Rats forum may be right up your alley. Welcome, and I hope this helps!
Hi, Bill. Thanks for the quick response. I’ve heard of Ray Walker and wouldn’t mind hearing what some of his techniques are. I’m looking to get started on my own two feet with my family winery and wonder what others are doing in keeping with old world tradition. I am from the US but my family is from Brinon-sur-Sauldre, France in the Loire Valley. They came to the United States with my grandfather. I have been picking up my old heritage and really digging into starting my own winery. I am looking to start my own family winery on a shoestring budget utilizing great grapes from various vineyards and utilizing old world techniques.
I’d love to hear how others are also utilizing old world techniques. Thanks again for the recommendation, Bill!
Tom, what do you mean? Is this in the wrong area? I know Bill said I’d probably get more responses in the Cellar Rats forum. If the moderator needs to move it, I’d be fine moving it.
Is that what the response was about? My intention in this thread was not a conversation about Ray Walker. He has gone and done something on his own and that is his business. I’m looking to connect with others about traditional techniques.
Old world techniques is what I asked about and that’s what I’m hoping to learn more about on this forum.
Ill chime in, for me its use of at lest some whole clusters in PN and whole cluster pressing of whites, small 1 ton fermentors for PN, barrels for white, hand punchdowns, 21+ days on skins, wild yeast, wild malo, no temperature control or adjustment, no finning or filtration, gravity for as much as possible, below 100 pats total so2 none added until malo is complete, and a wooden slatted basket press. Only other additive used on some lots in some vintages of PN is tartaric acid. We use the above for our PN, SB, and Semillion.
I am currently making wine on my farm. I am working through a business plan to get an urban winery setup in the Philadelphia, PA market though.
How often are you doing the punchdowns? I’ve read on others preferring a mixed fermentation with whole clusters thrown in. Some had mixed reviews saying it added some vegatative taste. Any thoughts?
Also, on malo, you said you aim for wild malo. How are you ensuring its kicking in? Also what environment are you going through wild fermentation and malo? On a farm, wild probably works much better. In an urban winery setting, I’d be nervous about wild fermentation or malo.
Tom sent me over the link for Rhys Vineyards and I was really impressed by their process. Simple, utilizing natural yeasts that are on the grapes when they come in, simple foot treading for punchdowns. Very low impact. If you haven’t read it, take a look at it here. http://www.rhysvineyards.com/cave/
I’ve also read a good bit about open top fermentation versus closed. I know open has been utilized by a good amount of people. The fruit flies are a definite pain out by me, so I’d probably want to use a mesh cover over top. How are some of you approaching this?
You need to understand the why of all these choices, not just follow a recipe. The same winery will often make very different choices for different wines. Different choices for the same wine in different vintages. Different choices for different clones of the same variety of grape from the same vineyard in the same vintage. Browse the threads here in Cellar Rats to see extensive discussions on many of these topics. I think you’ll find most of the people on here work on the low intervention side of things.
Thanks, Wes. I agree that there must be a reason you are doing everything you are doing. Things have been tested over years of hard work. Some prefer a truly scientific approach while others prefer to let the grapes do the work. I lean toward the latter.
Going back to Rhys, they use 500L tanks in order to be able to focus on individual terroir per batch. Secondly it allows them to do manual punchdowns easily without excess equipment and ties into flavor. Something as simple as that is useful to know their reasoning.
This forum has been great for finding a collective knowledge on technique.
Sticking with Rhys as an example of what I’m saying, they use different percentages of whole cluster, depending on grape, site, block, clone, vintage, etc. It ranges from zero to 100%. All the same winemaking philosophy, and different lots of Pinot Noir from the same vineyard (Alpine), mostly due to clone, can really encompass that full range. They also react greatly to what a vintage provides. That’s just one of the many aspects of winemaking you’re asking about, and a general answer doesn’t hold. There are long discussions about these topics.
Good advice for if you’re buying grapes from an established source is to taste wines made from there, then ask the winemakers about the issues they confronted and the choices they made. On the former, some vineyards just throw unexpected curves - it’s good to be ready for them. On the latter, you can use your judgment in relation to what you like or don’t in those wines to help in your own decisions.
Wes, thanks for the great info and advice. I’m working through finding some sources of grapes right now for next harvest. Looking for Pinot Noir from the New York Finger Lakes. I’ll take your advice and speak with their winemaker about the challenges they’ve run into. Thanks!
I think your general idea is about right. Some people just go in guns blazing and do all sorts of things that obscure the fruit. I think it’s better to start with a light touch and see what a site has to offer.
Btw, you might find their winemaker would be interested seeing what your choices are and how your wines come out. That’s sort of a free experiment that might provide some good insight.
Shane, have you made contact with any sources in the Finger Lakes?
It’s where I live, so if you ever come this way let me know.
I wonder. however, how much quality Pinot noir grapes would be available to buy from this region–there isn’t a lot of it to go around, and after last winter, there’s even less.