Non goverment ID

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Roberto Rogness
 
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Non goverment ID

Post #1  Postby Roberto Rogness » April 16th 2011, 2:28pm

A Russian girl was just in here trying to buy wine and had an "ID Card" issued by some commercial entity that had all sorts of warnings on the back about how not honoring it was illegal and opens you up to discrimination lawsuits. She had no passport or actual Cali ID. She looked young and the card said she was 28. I refused the sale.

Anyone else seen one of those cards? Did you honor it?
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #2  Postby Sean Devaney » April 16th 2011, 4:57pm

Well that's a new one. I wonder how much it cost her? Back in the day, pre-1994 when ITB, only CA drivers liscence, CA ID card or military ID were accepted as proof of age.
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #3  Postby Randy Sloan » April 16th 2011, 9:33pm

I'm assuming that you don't have to sell to anyone you don't want to... or do you have to have a sign that says you "Reserve the right to refuse service, blah, blah..."

However, I have to tip my hat to you being able to say "no" to a young Russian woman. [snort.gif]
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #4  Postby Brent C l a y t o n » April 16th 2011, 10:40pm

Non-Government ID=Fake ID. You are old enough to know better. [snort.gif] Perhaps the old CA Baptismal certificates going for valid alcohol purchases will jar your memory. A totally Jewish and Jewish-looking friend who lived in SD in the 70's had one and he said it worked for him quite a bit. neener

They'd eat you up like dim sum dumplings on the East Coast and your license would be gone in a jiffy if you can't discern crap like this. The non-govs are usually HS kids here in NYC. Also look for the ones that look like a state-issued DL but the seal says 'Genuine Authentic.' That means 'Genuinely, Authentically Fake.' I can send you some samples if you like, PM me.

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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #5  Postby Bob Wood » April 17th 2011, 6:09am

Randy Sloan wrote:
However, I have to tip my hat to you being able to say "no" to a young Russian woman. [snort.gif]


More than Leve could manage. [snort.gif]
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #6  Postby Roberto Rogness » April 17th 2011, 10:49am

She WAS cute....
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #7  Postby Enzo Ruffalo » April 17th 2011, 12:45pm

[cheers.gif]
Last edited by Enzo Ruffalo on January 11th 2012, 6:31pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #8  Postby Roberto Rogness » April 17th 2011, 1:12pm

This one was NOT a fake of a Government issued one, it was something issued by a private company and said so on the back. What a scam...
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #9  Postby Linda Baehr » April 18th 2011, 12:50pm

Brent C l a y t o n wrote: Also look for the ones that look like a state-issued DL but the seal says 'Genuine Authentic.' That means 'Genuinely, Authentically Fake.' I can send you some samples if you like, PM me.

Brent


Another thing I was taught to do when I was bartending- if someone gave you a DL that you suspected was fake, you could swipe it through the credit card machine. If the card was authentic and the magnetic strip was indeed magnetized, it would make the machine beep. Not sure if it would work on the newer machines (this was about 10 years ago).
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #10  Postby Ken V » April 18th 2011, 1:16pm

Linda Baehr wrote:
Brent C l a y t o n wrote: Also look for the ones that look like a state-issued DL but the seal says 'Genuine Authentic.' That means 'Genuinely, Authentically Fake.' I can send you some samples if you like, PM me.

Brent


Another thing I was taught to do when I was bartending- if someone gave you a DL that you suspected was fake, you could swipe it through the credit card machine. If the card was authentic and the magnetic strip was indeed magnetized, it would make the machine beep. Not sure if it would work on the newer machines (this was about 10 years ago).

You could tell them it was a special authenticity detector!
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #11  Postby Eric LeVine » April 18th 2011, 2:31pm

Linda Baehr wrote:Another thing I was taught to do when I was bartending- if someone gave you a DL that you suspected was fake, you could swipe it through the credit card machine. If the card was authentic and the magnetic strip was indeed magnetized, it would make the machine beep. Not sure if it would work on the newer machines (this was about 10 years ago).

You were a bartender? How many times did guys try to hit on you by ordering a certain drink made with Sloe Gin, Southern Comfort, Galliano and OJ?
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #12  Postby Linda Baehr » April 18th 2011, 3:45pm

Eric LeVine wrote:
Linda Baehr wrote:Another thing I was taught to do when I was bartending- if someone gave you a DL that you suspected was fake, you could swipe it through the credit card machine. If the card was authentic and the magnetic strip was indeed magnetized, it would make the machine beep. Not sure if it would work on the newer machines (this was about 10 years ago).

You were a bartender? How many times did guys try to hit on you by ordering a certain drink made with Sloe Gin, Southern Comfort, Galliano and OJ?


[snort.gif]
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #13  Postby Ken V » April 18th 2011, 6:15pm

Eric LeVine wrote:
Linda Baehr wrote:Another thing I was taught to do when I was bartending- if someone gave you a DL that you suspected was fake, you could swipe it through the credit card machine. If the card was authentic and the magnetic strip was indeed magnetized, it would make the machine beep. Not sure if it would work on the newer machines (this was about 10 years ago).

You were a bartender? How many times did guys try to hit on you by ordering a certain drink made with Sloe Gin, Southern Comfort, Galliano and OJ?

Old line of yours, Eric? [stirthepothal.gif]
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #14  Postby Eric LeVine » April 19th 2011, 12:02am

Ken V wrote:
Eric LeVine wrote:
Linda Baehr wrote:Another thing I was taught to do when I was bartending- if someone gave you a DL that you suspected was fake, you could swipe it through the credit card machine. If the card was authentic and the magnetic strip was indeed magnetized, it would make the machine beep. Not sure if it would work on the newer machines (this was about 10 years ago).

You were a bartender? How many times did guys try to hit on you by ordering a certain drink made with Sloe Gin, Southern Comfort, Galliano and OJ?

Old line of yours, Eric? [stirthepothal.gif]

Ken, I wish. I never had the balls to try and order that from a hot bartendress. Not to mention that it probably tastes like crap.
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #15  Postby Ken V » April 19th 2011, 3:49am

Eric LeVine wrote:
Ken V wrote:
Eric LeVine wrote:
Linda Baehr wrote:Another thing I was taught to do when I was bartending- if someone gave you a DL that you suspected was fake, you could swipe it through the credit card machine. If the card was authentic and the magnetic strip was indeed magnetized, it would make the machine beep. Not sure if it would work on the newer machines (this was about 10 years ago).

You were a bartender? How many times did guys try to hit on you by ordering a certain drink made with Sloe Gin, Southern Comfort, Galliano and OJ?

Old line of yours, Eric? [stirthepothal.gif]

Ken, I wish. I never had the balls to try and order that from a hot bartendress. Not to mention that it probably tastes like crap.

I'm betting you'd didn't have much success with "You wanna come to my place and see my software?"
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #16  Postby Linda Baehr » April 19th 2011, 8:29am

Ken V wrote:
Eric LeVine wrote:
Ken V wrote:
Eric LeVine wrote:
Linda Baehr wrote:Another thing I was taught to do when I was bartending- if someone gave you a DL that you suspected was fake, you could swipe it through the credit card machine. If the card was authentic and the magnetic strip was indeed magnetized, it would make the machine beep. Not sure if it would work on the newer machines (this was about 10 years ago).

You were a bartender? How many times did guys try to hit on you by ordering a certain drink made with Sloe Gin, Southern Comfort, Galliano and OJ?

Old line of yours, Eric? [stirthepothal.gif]

Ken, I wish. I never had the balls to try and order that from a hot bartendress. Not to mention that it probably tastes like crap.

I'm betting you'd didn't have much success with "You wanna come to my place and see my software?"


Hardware, Ken. Software will get you nowhere. [wow.gif] [snort.gif]
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #17  Postby Eric LeVine » April 19th 2011, 8:50am

Damn it, that was my problem!
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #18  Postby Bruce Rudman » April 20th 2011, 6:43am

Back to the issue of the fake ID, I am told the newer fake Govt. Ids have encoded magnetic strips too. Makes it harder to tell.
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #19  Postby Ken V » April 20th 2011, 7:12am

Linda Baehr wrote:
Ken V wrote:
Eric LeVine wrote:Ken, I wish. I never had the balls to try and order that from a hot bartendress. Not to mention that it probably tastes like crap.

I'm betting you'd didn't have much success with "You wanna come to my place and see my software?"


Hardware, Ken. Software will get you nowhere. [wow.gif] [snort.gif]

He's a SW guy. That's all he's got. (And that was my joke. rolleyes )

In fact, I'm thinking of making a bumpersticker that says "EE's bring the hardware!"
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #20  Postby andy velebil » April 24th 2011, 8:44am

Roberto,
Don't worry all those California Driver's Licenses you accept aren't a valid form of ID either. The DMV will tell you a driver's license is NOT a valid form of ID and not to accept it as such, it's a license to drive only. However, their ID cards are a form of ID to be used as such. The only difference between them, one says Identification Card on top and one say's Driver's License on top....only in California [head-bang.gif]
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #21  Postby Brent C l a y t o n » April 24th 2011, 10:24am

Bruce Rudman wrote:Back to the issue of the fake ID, I am told the newer fake Govt. Ids have encoded magnetic strips too. Makes it harder to tell.


That also depends on who is doing the encoding and whether or not the person checking the id is cognizant of the sequencing.

Lots of kids insist that you scan their fake id's because the seller bragged to them about how it scans. But if the numbers are just gobbledygook it's obvious. Also, each state has a certain identifier sequence with your birthday embedded in it somehow, it varies state to state. I have seen id's that were altered on the front but scanned with a different, younger birthdate or a completely different date than what is on the front of the ID, leading you to believe the counterfeiters are just reusing one strip on multiple id copies.

Yet other states are moving away from a magnetic strip to barcode and advanced, next-gen barcode technology. The next-gen is great for law enforcement, but doesn't help me much. The best universal security feature that is out there, IMO is the UV hologram. Those are tough to duplicate in a forged instrument, but if you have someone on the inside in a DMV who is doing this sort of thing for criminals/illegal aliens then that's a whole other kettle of fish than young kids seeking ID's for the purpose of underage drinking.
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #22  Postby Roberto Rogness » April 30th 2011, 4:14pm

Got a letter from the city today with the explanation. She was a DECOY. We turned her down and they thanked us for our diligence.
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #23  Postby JP Taboada » April 30th 2011, 7:39pm

Bravo 'Beto. Nice work and good job.
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #24  Postby Paul Luckin » May 3rd 2011, 2:53pm

Roberto Rogness wrote:Got a letter from the city today with the explanation. She was a DECOY. We turned her down and they thanked us for our diligence.


or you could have just said, "Are you at least 21 years old?" by law, the decoy must answer that question truthfully. also, as it was explained to me in the last Responsible Pouring Seminar i attended, the ID presented by a decoy must be their actual identification - not a mock-up or fake ID.

nice work on following your instincts. [cheers.gif]
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #25  Postby Richard Merenbach » May 4th 2011, 7:30am

I am a defense attorney and part time wine salesman. I know of no requirement that a decoy tell the truth or absolute rule that they must show their real ID. In fact, I can almost gurantee that they can lie about their age. the fake ID by a decoy would give you a stong entrapment argument. There laws will vary by state.
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Non goverment ID

Post #26  Postby andy velebil » May 4th 2011, 7:36am

Paul Luckin wrote:
Roberto Rogness wrote:Got a letter from the city today with the explanation. She was a DECOY. We turned her down and they thanked us for our diligence.


or you could have just said, "Are you at least 21 years old?" by law, the decoy must answer that question truthfully. also, as it was explained to me in the last Responsible Pouring Seminar i attended, the ID presented by a decoy must be their actual identification - not a mock-up or fake ID.

nice work on following your instincts. [cheers.gif]

In California that is correct. They can't lie about thir age if asked and can't dress or "look" older. ( ie. They can't wear a shirt with alcohol advertisement on it etc. And you can't use a kid who is 18 but looks 30. There is a lot of rules and case law here regarding minor decoys.
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #27  Postby Ken V » May 4th 2011, 8:06am

andy velebil wrote:In California that is correct. They can't lie about thir age if asked and can't dress or "look" older. ( ie. They can't wear a shirt with alcohol advertisement on it etc. And you can't use a kid who is 18 but looks 30. There is a lot of rules and case law here regarding minor decoys.

Does this apply to sex as well?

I'm just askin'. [snort.gif]
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #28  Postby Paul Luckin » May 4th 2011, 2:35pm

Richard Merenbach wrote:I am a defense attorney and part time wine salesman. I know of no requirement that a decoy tell the truth or absolute rule that they must show their real ID. In fact, I can almost gurantee that they can lie about their age. the fake ID by a decoy would give you a stong entrapment argument. There laws will vary by state.


i'm not sure what other states require as part of their decoy operations, but as far as CA goes the decoy must answer questions about their age truthfully, and must show their own ID if asked during the sting operation.

either that, or the ABC representative who told us that was wrong.
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #29  Postby Richard Merenbach » May 5th 2011, 7:22am

the ABC employee who told you that was partially right. ABC guide lines require that the decoy look the underage and that they tell the truth. Court have said that those provisions do not affect whether you have violated the criminal statute. So, as far as criminal law is concerned, you are guilty of selling to the underage even if the decoy looks older and he lies about his age.

The key to an entrapment defense in Cali is that you have to prove you are not predisposed to commit the crime. Both the appearence and the lying might help you set up the defense, but would probably not be sufficient to most juries. This is why the policy of most stores to check all IDs of anyone who looks younger then 30.

By-the-way, just to make sure I was not off base here, since I usually only do felonies, I checked West's Annotated Code.
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #30  Postby Gerard Stranch » May 7th 2011, 6:26am

I used to have one of those "international ID cards". It never did get confiscated. Although my North Dakota driver's license did.

Unless there is a quirk of CA law, as a general rule, in sting operations or with undercover cops, there is no requirement from a constitutional perspective that they tell you the truth at any point.
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #31  Postby Mark.Ricca » September 13th 2011, 6:00am

We have a card reader that can utilize magnetic strips or next-gen barcodes. We have a wall of shame loaded with fake IDs. The better ones have holograms that match state issued DLs to a certain degree but since many states use multiple holograms and imagery, something usually gets overlooked. The fakes never scan either. I had a customer who was buying about $1600.00 worth of call brand liquor in large format and I routinely check the DL to see if the name matches the credit card (this was not an age issue), he handed me a Florida DL with the "Genuine Authenticity" holograms and the hologram images of keys. I denied the sale and confiscated the license. When the "customer" protested and insisted that I give his license back, I replied that I would be happy to call the local police and if there was no issue with the validity of the license, he could have it back and proceed with the sale.

He left. I presume the CC was fake also.

The giveaway on the better fakes these days is the photo. If it looks two dimensional as if it came from a color printer, it's probably bogus.
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Re: Non goverment ID

Post #32  Postby Rick Smith » September 15th 2011, 6:56am

Mark.Ricca wrote:We have a card reader that can utilize magnetic strips or next-gen barcodes. We have a wall of shame loaded with fake IDs. The better ones have holograms that match state issued DLs to a certain degree but since many states use multiple holograms and imagery, something usually gets overlooked. The fakes never scan either. I had a customer who was buying about $1600.00 worth of call brand liquor in large format and I routinely check the DL to see if the name matches the credit card (this was not an age issue), he handed me a Florida DL with the "Genuine Authenticity" holograms and the hologram images of keys. I denied the sale and confiscated the license. When the "customer" protested and insisted that I give his license back, I replied that I would be happy to call the local police and if there was no issue with the validity of the license, he could have it back and proceed with the sale.

He left. I presume the CC was fake also.

The giveaway on the better fakes these days is the photo. If it looks two dimensional as if it came from a color printer, it's probably bogus.
You turned away a $1600 sale?
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