Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

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Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #1  Postby Steve Manzi » July 16th 2009, 11:29am

After multiple calls today and yesterday from Rob Kenney (a good friend of mine, and the biggest suck up EVER to Jay Miller), it seems that even Kenney has been working his head out of Jay's ass.

Now, Jay may be the nicest guy in the world, I make NO personal opinions of him here at all.

Here are the facts, although brief due to lack of strength.

Sierra Carche 2005 (96 pts- Jay Miller) Bodegas y Vinedos Murcia - Marcial Martinez Cruz (winemaker)

Pico Madama 2005 (95+ pts Jay Miller) Bodegas y Vinedos Murcia - Marcial Martinez Cruz (winemaker)

Well Oiled Wine Company (Importer/distributor?): Having been recently notified of suspicion of the highest order with this wine, have been nothing but forthcoming and trying to do the right thing.

Having bought the Sierra Carche last year on Kenney's rec due to his LOVE and trust of Jay Miller, I tasted the wine before Kenney opened his, and told him it was THE worst wine I have EVER tasted, that I bought on a recommendation, and might be one of the WORST wines I have ever put in my mouth that was not corked or cooked or whatever.


Kenney tried it soon after, and admits it sucks, but due to his LOVE of Jay, he says it needs time. I tell him that NO time will help that wine, and that it just plain sucks.

Kenney opens several more with same results over next month or so (slow learner, stubborn...and cmon, the guy is in love)- So, he SENDS a bottle OVERNIGHT (around August/September 2008) ALL at his expense.

Jay is made aware of this situation, and sits on it for how long??????

NOT tasted until July 14th of 2009! TEN months later!!!

Confirms that it sucks, but INSISTED that it was the 2006 that he sent him.....impossible, since it hasn't even been released, and also I baby stepped myself downstairs and using a maginifying glass, proved it was 2005.

There is a bit more to story, but Kenney asked me to hold off until Jay has a chance to do something.

There were, I believe, thousands of cases sold of this wine, purely on that score. The score is NOT from the bottles we own and drank. Jay, or any other taster, could never be off that much. This is a 60pt wine at best. It does not seem to be an isolated bottle, case or cases. NOT when you have thousands of cases like this.

Something is VERY wrong here. And furthermore, for Jay, after all the heat he has taken in the last few months (much of it justified, some not) he was so disgustingly slow in getting to this 96 pt wonder that he tasted that his BIGGEST supporter called him on and sent him a bottle to RE-try, that it just boggles the mind....even Kenney's.

To start, I would love for anyone to chime in that has tasted this wine, and would LOVE to hear if anyone has had ONE great bottle, or even one that they thought was tasty.

Things could be SO rotten in Denmark, that this could end up huge news. Btw, same winery/winemaker, and the Pico Madama 2005 has apparently had similar issues.

Kenney and I could have easily gone back to the store we bought this from and received a refund, but we wanted to go this route because, I really really believe something is VERY wrong here.

That's all for now......I am tired just from typing all that. [thankyou.gif]
Last edited by Steve Manzi on July 16th 2009, 7:59pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #2  Postby Max Marinucci » July 16th 2009, 11:38am

Finally some of this crap is coming to light. Gee, I wonder how many of these "doctored" samples are put together to please a critic, get a high score, and then what ends up in the bottle is basically shit or at the very least not the same wine at all. It happens all the time and it can only stop when critics stop taking these samples at face value from wineries, importers etc, and it is not the finished product from a box that's already on the market and for sale.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #3  Postby Douglass Smith » July 16th 2009, 11:41am

Never had it. FWIW gets a median of 90 points with 44 TNs on Cellar Tracker. (See HERE). Not 96 points, but people seem satisfied with it generally. (Jeb Dunnuck gave it a 92).
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #4  Postby Bill Tex Landreth » July 16th 2009, 11:47am

You know that tonnes of wines get Parkerized or Millerized before they are tasted.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #5  Postby Daniel Posner » July 16th 2009, 11:58am

Steve

Thank you for chiming in. I hope you are doing better physically.

I am glad to see you post the truth on this story. You could sense Robert Kenney biting his tongue very hard lately, as he was very quiet for the last few months.

He sent the sample last September and without Bob Hudak's recent TN, Miller would have continued to ignore Robert Kenney, who is Miller's biggest fan. Any retailer who would have ignored someone like this would have been put through the guillotine (sp?) twice already. Once with their head, then their testicles! I guess that is why Miller no longer works retail.

My personal take is that Miller tasted the 2006 the other night. He reaffirmed it a few hours after posting his original "tasting" note. Probably had a leftover sample from his lunch with Marc, from the Well Oiled Wine Company. He has rated the 2006, so it is possible he has a leftover btl from his tasting session with him

Bloggers will be all over this one. I would hope Parker finally says goodbye to his friend. This should be the final black eye. Pissing off your #1 fan is not a good idea. And being this unprofessional is just horrendous. But none of us can be surprised by this latest embarassment. If Jay stays on, there will be more to come.

Robert Kenney, if you are out there, steaks at my house, with some good Argentine wines! Jaouen is in! You my boy, Blue! [dance-clap.gif]
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #6  Postby Daniel Posner » July 16th 2009, 11:59am

Bill Tex Landreth wrote:You know that tonnes of wines get Parkerized or Millerized before they are tasted.



This is what happens when you choose not to taste blind and you let the importers control your tasting conditions.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #7  Postby Bill Tex Landreth » July 16th 2009, 12:07pm

Daniel Posner wrote:
Bill Tex Landreth wrote:You know that tonnes of wines get Parkerized or Millerized before they are tasted.



This is what happens when you choose not to taste blind and you let the importers control your tasting conditions.


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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #8  Postby BobH » July 16th 2009, 12:12pm

Jay miller confirmed that the wine he tasted was indeed the 2005. he mis-read it as the 2006.

I was contacted by the importer, and they will be giving me instructions on what I should do. The wine may not be returnable as I do not have a recepit, so I hope that the importer will help in this regard.

and eh gads I hope that this is not going to blow up all over the blogosphere, because my name will be all over that, and that is something I do nto want. [shock.gif]
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #9  Postby Daniel Posner » July 16th 2009, 12:12pm

But he needs someone to spoon feed him info, because even at home, he cannot read a wine label. Is this guy a doctor?


http://dat.erobertparker.com/bboard/sho ... p?t=206266

Bob,

Miller has never confirmed tasting the 2005, he has confirmed that he cannot read. Why not look at the btl again? He never did that. People reported immediately that he had the vintage wrong.

I think he tasted the 2006 again.

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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #10  Postby Mark F r a n k s » July 16th 2009, 12:20pm

Steve;

First and foremost, glad to see you back posting, I hope you're doing well my friend.

I bought a six pack from the Wine Library last July based on the score and Gary's email blast that hyped it up.I've had the wine twice since then, both have been near undrinkable. I sold two bottles to a friend (below cost), because he wanted them. I still have two bottles left that I want to return. I emailed the importer, but haven't heard back from him as of yet.

I think this is and should be the last straw for those out there that were on the fence whether or not they believe doctored bottles are presented to critics. I for one will never again buy again solely on a critics score, but will continue to purchase based on notes written by friends and compatriots whose palates I trust. I think my chances of success will be much higher that way.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #11  Postby Mark F r a n k s » July 16th 2009, 12:21pm

b hudak wrote:Jay miller confirmed that the wine he tasted was indeed the 2005. he mis-read it as the 2006.

I was contacted by the importer, and they will be giving me instructions on what I should do. The wine may not be returnable as I do not have a recepit, so I hope that the importer will help in this regard.

and eh gads I hope that this is not going to blow up all over the blogosphere, because my name will be all over that, and that is something I do nto want. [shock.gif]


I believe it's already known as "The Hudak Syndrome". Good luck.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #12  Postby Roberto Rogness » July 16th 2009, 12:24pm

As I read that link to eBob, he is both admitting that he tasted the 2005 AND that the wine he rated was "fraudulent". This is sort of a big deal, no?
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #13  Postby Ian Dorin » July 16th 2009, 12:24pm

Hey all,
Just so you know, if you bought the wine from us, we will gladly take it back and credit you for the wine.

Mark- If you can get the wine back from your buddy too, I will glad credit you for it.

It does appear there are good bottles of this, but there are enough bad ones too. If any one needs a contact here, just email me directly at ian@winelibrary.com.
If you aren't an email guy, just email me a number to call you at.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #14  Postby Mark F r a n k s » July 16th 2009, 12:27pm

Ian, thanks. I'll get in touch with my friend. I don't think he drank them yet, I haven't heard any loud shrill screams from his house lately.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #15  Postby GregT » July 16th 2009, 12:29pm

No Roberto. It's not a big deal. It's about context and the fallacy that blind tasting is somehow a good idea. You see, if you taste blind, you lose so much of the important contextual information that it impairs your judgment.

And in this case it is perforce blind in a literal sense too. He said that the five can look very much like a six, depending on the angle of the bottle. That's a bigger deal to me!
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #16  Postby Ian Dorin » July 16th 2009, 12:29pm

Mark F r a n k s wrote:Ian, thanks. I'll get in touch with my friend. I don't think he drank them yet, I haven't heard any loud shrill screams from his house lately.


Maybe he did try the wine and decided not to talk to you anymore neener
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #17  Postby Keith Levenberg » July 16th 2009, 12:33pm

Isn't this exactly the same thing that happened a few years ago with Parker and Castano Solanera?
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #18  Postby BobH » July 16th 2009, 12:35pm

Daniel Posner wrote:But he needs someone to spoon feed him info, because even at home, he cannot read a wine label. Is this guy a doctor?


http://dat.erobertparker.com/bboard/sho ... p?t=206266

Bob,

Miller has never confirmed tasting the 2005, he has confirmed that he cannot read. Why not look at the btl again? He never did that. People reported immediately that he had the vintage wrong.

I think he tasted the 2006 again.

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I don't think the 06 has even been released yet, which is why everyone was insisting that it was the 2005. Regardless, what a mess...
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #19  Postby Faryan Amir-Ghassem¡ » July 16th 2009, 12:37pm

I think some are a bit too quick to jump the gun on Jay Miller. If it is indeed the case that there are bad batch samples of this wine, how is it Jay's fault that he rated what he drank objectively? Apparently some (not saying all) of this wine which has hit shelves has been good. Cellartracker says 90 pts which equates to 95pts JM...
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #20  Postby Daniel Posner » July 16th 2009, 12:39pm

Solanera, Las Rocas, the list could go on...even Miller just said Las Rocas for Parker may have been altered. las Rocas was owned by importer Eric Solomon.

Miller just said that the winery and/or importer (presumably the importer is the owner of the brand as they have indicated) have committed fraud.

If Mark Squires owned the winery, he would be in federal court, filing lawsuit papers already.

A "staggering plus" big deal!

Greg Tatar posted a picture of the label, not hard to read.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #21  Postby BobH » July 16th 2009, 12:39pm

Keith Levenberg wrote:Isn't this exactly the same thing that happened a few years ago with Parker and Castano Solanera?


No. Parker rated that one something like 93, and most people thought it scored in the high 80's. Someone sent Parker a bottle of their 'bad' wine, and Parker (and his wife for back-up) both said it was about 91 points. close enough that it wasn't enough to bitch about IMHO.

But, Even at its very best, there wasn't an ounce of pleasure in the Sierra Carche. 20 points is a huge difference as opposed to just something like 2.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #22  Postby Dale Williams » July 16th 2009, 12:41pm

I'm sure there are lots of doctored/"specially chosen" samples for critics. But with the diversity of scores on CT (see link in Douglass's post)* another possibility occurs to me. What if the original sample was the legitimate wine, but when it got a 96 the producer decided "hey, we've got X cases that are certainly going to sell out, we could easily sell 3X, go buy some wine and slap label on." That would explain the fact there are a lot of "undrinkable" as well as a lot of wines that are praised.

This is all academic to me of course as I'm about as likely to buy a modern Spanish wine with high JM score as I am Chinese snake wine. :)
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #23  Postby Kyle S chaffer » July 16th 2009, 12:41pm

Steve Manzi wrote:
To start, I would love for anyone to chime in that has tasted this wine, and would LOVE to hear if anyone has had ONE great bottle, or even one that they thought was tasty.




I tried it and thought it was awful. In fact, it prompted the first (and still only) email I've sent to a wine retailer.
On 9/8/08 I sent an email to Gary V at WL telling him Sierra Carche "was the most disappointing wine I've had in recent memory".
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #24  Postby Daniel Posner » July 16th 2009, 12:43pm

Dale Williams wrote:I'm sure there are lots of doctored/"specially chosen" samples for critics. But with the diversity of scores on CT (see link in Douglass's post)* another possibility occurs to me. What if the original sample was the legitimate wine, but when it got a 96 the producer decided "hey, we've got X cases that are certainly going to sell out, we could easily sell 3X, go buy some wine and slap label on." That would explain the fact there are a lot of "undrinkable" as well as a lot of wines that are praised.

This is all academic to me of course as I'm about as likely to buy a modern Spanish wine with high JM score as I am Chinese snake wine. :)


Which is why Miller announced that this was fraud, a very serious allegation.

He would almost be better off saying he overrated the wine orginally. The importer and winery, if they can prove no fraud took place, may have an interesting lawsuit brewing.

I expect his post to be edited shortly, much like Parker edited his ripping of the WSJ.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #25  Postby Ian Dorin » July 16th 2009, 12:43pm

Dale Williams wrote:This is all academic to me of course as I'm about as likely to buy a modern Spanish wine with high JM score as I am Chinese snake wine. :)


That's the funniest thing I have ever heard. [rofl.gif]
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #26  Postby Larry Kaplan » July 16th 2009, 12:46pm

Seriously! I mean at this point can Miller be taken seriously at all. some crap story as to why he got the vintage wrong on the new undrinkable wine. I know there are shinanigan in the wine trade, I will grant him he may have been decived and this is bad. Then again, is this not the man that said the only good wines come from the big importers and goes on to list his buds Solomon being one of them? If the winery is set on deception not much he can do but would this not be better if his tasting procedures were altered to make it next to impossible for this to be the case. My hand are up I quit with this bunch of excusse makers and appologists. The information has ceassed to have value for me or my customers!
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #27  Postby R@y.Tupp@+sch » July 16th 2009, 12:49pm

Don't get carried away

Daniel Posner wrote:A "staggering plus" big deal!

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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #28  Postby Daniel Posner » July 16th 2009, 12:50pm

"More seriously, this is about the worst thing that can happen to a critic, to be tasted on a fraudulent wine..."

Staggering plus for me!
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #29  Postby Max Marinucci » July 16th 2009, 12:50pm

Faryan Amir-Ghassemi wrote:I think some are a bit too quick to jump the gun on Jay Miller. If it is indeed the case that there are bad batch samples of this wine, how is it Jay's fault that he rated what he drank objectively? Apparently some (not saying all) of this wine which has hit shelves has been good. Cellartracker says 90 pts which equates to 95pts JM...


It is his responsibility, as a critic, to sample and review a finished product that can be trusted. That's where the problem is. Too many times INFLUENTIAL critics are provided with questionable samples and not what ends up being bottled. Let's not forget one major thing here: the difference between even 89 and 92 points can spell economic failure for producers, importers and distributors so there are forces at play that can push dishonesty to the forefront, very easily.

Review the finished, in bottle, product that's on the shelves damn it! At least take one major variable out of the equation. I would not trust any HUGELY interested party spoon-feeding a sample for review.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #30  Postby Roberto Rogness » July 16th 2009, 12:50pm

Greg, I meant "Isn't him calling out a winery for giving him fraudulent samples a big deal?". I don't think I have ever seen that come out of any critics mouth before.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #31  Postby Keith Levenberg » July 16th 2009, 12:53pm

Roberto Rogness wrote:Greg, I meant "Isn't him calling out a winery for giving him fraudulent samples a big deal?". I don't think I have ever seen that come out of any critics mouth before.
Well, there was the Parker/Faiveley affair.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #32  Postby Daniel Posner » July 16th 2009, 12:55pm

Max Marinucci wrote:
Faryan Amir-Ghassemi wrote:I think some are a bit too quick to jump the gun on Jay Miller. If it is indeed the case that there are bad batch samples of this wine, how is it Jay's fault that he rated what he drank objectively? Apparently some (not saying all) of this wine which has hit shelves has been good. Cellartracker says 90 pts which equates to 95pts JM...


It is his responsibility, as a critic, to sample and review a finished product that can be trusted. That's where the problem is. Too many times INFLUENTIAL critics are provided with questionable samples and not what ends up being bottled. Let's not forget one major thing here: the difference between even 89 and 92 points can spell economic failure for producers, importers and distributors so there are forces at play that can push dishonesty to the forefront, very easily.

Review the finished, in bottle, product that's on the shelves damn it! At least take one major variable out of the equation. I would not trust any HUGELY interested party spoon-feeding a sample for review.


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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #33  Postby Bill Tex Landreth » July 16th 2009, 12:58pm

Max Marinucci wrote:...the difference between even 89 and 92 points can spell economic failure for producers, importers and distributors so there are forces at play that can push dishonesty to the forefront, very easily.



Exactly.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #34  Postby Peter C. » July 16th 2009, 1:00pm

Kyle S chaffer wrote:
Steve Manzi wrote:
To start, I would love for anyone to chime in that has tasted this wine, and would LOVE to hear if anyone has had ONE great bottle, or even one that they thought was tasty.




I tried it and thought it was awful. In fact, it prompted the first (and still only) email I've sent to a wine retailer.
On 9/8/08 I sent an email to Gary V at WL telling him Sierra Carche "was the most disappointing wine I've had in recent memory".



That avatar cracks me up every time. Did you wash it before giving it back to A.? neener
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #35  Postby R@y.Tupp@+sch » July 16th 2009, 1:00pm

Dan,
I have only skimmed the summary of what happened. For all I know it might be Killer minus. I only posted TIC because of the terminology you used.

Daniel Posner wrote:"More seriously, this is about the worst thing that can happen to a critic, to be tasted on a fraudulent wine..."

Staggering plus for me!
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #36  Postby Peter C. » July 16th 2009, 1:01pm

Keith Levenberg wrote:
Roberto Rogness wrote:Greg, I meant "Isn't him calling out a winery for giving him fraudulent samples a big deal?". I don't think I have ever seen that come out of any critics mouth before.
Well, there was the Parker/Faiveley affair.


Ooo do tell, never heard that one and I suspect a search on ebob will come up empty.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #37  Postby Max Marinucci » July 16th 2009, 1:05pm

Ray Tuppatsch wrote:Dan,
I only posted TIC because of the terminology you used.



...which by the way should be proprietary and you should be suing his ass as we speak for infringement. [dance2.gif]
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #38  Postby Max Marinucci » July 16th 2009, 1:06pm

Peter C. wrote:
Keith Levenberg wrote:
Roberto Rogness wrote:Greg, I meant "Isn't him calling out a winery for giving him fraudulent samples a big deal?". I don't think I have ever seen that come out of any critics mouth before.
Well, there was the Parker/Faiveley affair.


Ooo do tell, never heard that one and I suspect a search on ebob will come up empty.



Faiveley Drops Libel Suit Against Robert Parker

Burgundy vintner François Faiveley has dropped a libel lawsuit against Robert Parker after reaching an out-of- court settlement with the American wine critic and his book publisher.

In February, Faiveley sued Parker and the critic's publisher, Simon & Schuster, over a passage in Parker's Wine Buyer's Guide that Faiveley believed libeled his winery. According to the agreement, the defendants will eliminate the controversial paragraph from future editions of the book. Faiveley also said that the settlement calls for the publisher to stop distributing the current edition of the book after May 30, the date the settlement was signed. Parker also published a notice in his newsletter, The Wine Advocate.

"Robert Parker has agreed to what I had asked," said Faiveley, an influential négociant in Burgundy. He said he never asked for any damages beyond a symbolic 1 franc from each of the defendants.

--Per-Henrik Mansson

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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #39  Postby Faryan Amir-Ghassem¡ » July 16th 2009, 1:07pm

Max Marinucci wrote:
Faryan Amir-Ghassemi wrote:I think some are a bit too quick to jump the gun on Jay Miller. If it is indeed the case that there are bad batch samples of this wine, how is it Jay's fault that he rated what he drank objectively? Apparently some (not saying all) of this wine which has hit shelves has been good. Cellartracker says 90 pts which equates to 95pts JM...


It is his responsibility, as a critic, to sample and review a finished product that can be trusted. That's where the problem is. Too many times INFLUENTIAL critics are provided with questionable samples and not what ends up being bottled. Let's not forget one major thing here: the difference between even 89 and 92 points can spell economic failure for producers, importers and distributors so there are forces at play that can push dishonesty to the forefront, very easily.

Review the finished, in bottle, product that's on the shelves damn it! At least take one major variable out of the equation. I would not trust any HUGELY interested party spoon-feeding a sample for review.


We still do not know what proportion of the wines are flawed to correct (if we assume that the bottle Jay drank was correct and non-doctored). Let's say it is 20%? How is Jay/TWA supposed to detect this? Taste through the wine an additional 5-10 times from varying sources? Impossible.

What will strike me as funny is if the flawed rate is, let's say, 50% of what's on the market, this will also be a black eye to cellartracker, as I've always had a sneaking suspicion that many taster's notes/scores are influenced by professionals/their peers. I believe this wine is averaging in the 90s on CT with a large enough sampling size...
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #40  Postby Keith A k e r s » July 16th 2009, 1:08pm

Steve Manzi wrote:
To start, I would love for anyone to chime in that has tasted this wine, and would LOVE to hear if anyone has had ONE great bottle, or even one that they thought was tasty.



steve, here is my note on this wine from feb. when I had it in a blind tasting. The theme of the tasting was wines with 95+ scores that were in the $60-75 range and under:

  • 2005 Bodegas y Viñedos de Murcia Jumilla Sierra Carche - Spain, Murcia, Jumilla (2/28/2009)
    "Classic Values" night (Phillip's apt, Chicago IL): this bottle was a real mess. Highly disjointed on both the palate and nose with some weird black fruits, bad black licorice and a whole lot of burnt plastic tones. There is nothing but tannins and out of whack acidity on the palate. Something just doesn't seem right about this wine and revisiting it later in the evening only made it worse. I'm with holding judgment until possibly trying a bottle in the future NR (flawed)
Posted from CellarTracker




Back then I wrote flawed figuring that this had to be aberration as there were some positive reviews of this wine on CT and mine was the only one that was this bad. My friend bought them from WL and still has two more. I sent him a link to the ebob thread and Iain's post here and hope that when he opens his other bottle that its a good bottle. My guess however after seeing other people chime in is that it will probably be more like the first one
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #41  Postby R@y.Tupp@+sch » July 16th 2009, 1:08pm

Papers are out for service

Max Marinucci wrote:
Ray Tuppatsch wrote:Dan,
I only posted TIC because of the terminology you used.



...which by the way should be proprietary and you should be suing his ass as we speak for infringement. [dance2.gif]
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #42  Postby Keith A k e r s » July 16th 2009, 1:11pm

Faryan Amir-Ghassemi wrote:
What will strike me as funny is if the flawed rate is, let's say, 50% of what's on the market, this will also be a black eye to cellartracker, as I've always had a sneaking suspicion that many taster's notes/scores are influenced by professionals/their peers. I believe this wine is averaging in the 90s on CT with a large enough sampling size...




one thing I wonder looking at CT is if some people are giving a possibly flawed wine a score in the high 80s because they have a hard time believing that a wine that was scored 96 is like this. Its one thing I find weird as I'm the only person that really put it in as a flawed wine. My friend who poured the wine blind for me didn't want to think it was flawed, but ended up agreeing with me when we both retried it again later in the night and it was completely undrinkable
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #43  Postby Max Marinucci » July 16th 2009, 1:16pm

Keith A k e r s wrote:
Faryan Amir-Ghassemi wrote:
What will strike me as funny is if the flawed rate is, let's say, 50% of what's on the market, this will also be a black eye to cellartracker, as I've always had a sneaking suspicion that many taster's notes/scores are influenced by professionals/their peers. I believe this wine is averaging in the 90s on CT with a large enough sampling size...




one thing I wonder looking at CT is if some people are giving a possibly flawed wine a score in the high 80s because they have a hard time believing that a wine that was scored 96 is like this. Its one thing I find weird as I'm the only person that really put it in as a flawed wine. My friend who poured the wine blind for me didn't want to think it was flawed, but ended up agreeing with me when we both retried it again later in the night and it was completely undrinkable



Keith,

I truly believe that most people would have a hard time calling a 96 points wine total crap and would be inclined to find redeeming qualities/excuses.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #44  Postby Daniel Posner » July 16th 2009, 1:19pm

Faryan

You are missing the point entirely. If Jay Miller and Robert Parker did not taste under such absurd conditions (in a restaurant, with the importer pouring the wines for them, while spoonfeeding them info about age of vines, types of oak, etc) then we would not be in this mess.

These importers open these wines far in advance, decant whenever is necessary, increase/decrease temps, do whatever is necessary to make these wines show as perfectly as possible for Miller/Parker. It has been going on for years. Las Rocas was the first public display of an importer allegedly taking advantage of the critic, as Parker clearly got a sample of a wine that no one else ever got to purchase. ITB, it was a joke. FYI, we stopped selling Las Rocas after that debacle. Who to blame there? Importer? Winery? They were the same person...Eric Solomon.

Well Oiled Wine Co will just change the name of this wine and pour it for Miller again, under a different label.

Interestingly enough Josh Raynolds has never reviewed these wines and Wine Spectator, when tasting BLIND, has never reviewed any wines from the Well Oiled Money, I mean Wine Company higher than 88.

If you give someone a 96 point wine, I agree that many will not call it bullshit. I give credit to people like S Manzi, Bob Hudak, R Kenney, etc for stepping up and calling bullshit on this situation.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #45  Postby Max Marinucci » July 16th 2009, 1:23pm

Daniel Posner wrote:Well Oiled Wine Co will just change the name of this wine and pour it for Miller again, under a different label.





Well, they are "Well Oiled" after all and it seems like there is some greasing going on here and there.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #46  Postby Loren Sonkin » July 16th 2009, 1:24pm

I am not sure that buying off the store shelves would have helped here. It appears that it was the winery playing games. If you remember Los Rocas, they got a high RP score, and then a lot of the wine (2001?) was not very good. It was a $12 bottle, but the point was that there was clearly wine that was not the same. I bought a great case of that wine (I think I still have one bottle left). Many did not. Eventually Eric Solomon reported that he had contacted the winery and the problem was "solved" although I don't think the wine was ever as good as that VV bottling the first year. The winery must have bottled more wine, but different under the same label.

I suspect, as was said above, that is what happened here. If that's the case here, then if Jay got a good bottle from, say WL (did you say Gary V. liked it as well?), but there were lots of bad bottles, then how would blind tasting or independent buying help? It still could happen.

I think Jay may a bold move by publicly calling them out for fraud. Hopefully, he digs deeper as it is his reputation on the line. The vintage mixup does not worry me, but then I just got my first presription reading glasses so I may be more tolerant.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #47  Postby Bill Tex Landreth » July 16th 2009, 1:25pm

If this is a case of winery/distributor duping...is there any legal action that ATF can/will take?
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #48  Postby Keith Levenberg » July 16th 2009, 1:26pm

Peter C. wrote:
Keith Levenberg wrote:
Roberto Rogness wrote:Greg, I meant "Isn't him calling out a winery for giving him fraudulent samples a big deal?". I don't think I have ever seen that come out of any critics mouth before.
Well, there was the Parker/Faiveley affair.
Ooo do tell, never heard that one and I suspect a search on ebob will come up empty.
Parker wrote that the Faiveley wines he bought in the U.S. were consistently inferior to what was shown to him at the winery, and obliquely implied there was some non-kosher reason for that. Faiveley sued Parker, which resulted in Parker's becoming persona non grata virtually everywhere in Burgundy. The settlement seems to prohibit Parker from ever talking about the situation or Faiveley in general.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #49  Postby Loren Sonkin » July 16th 2009, 1:27pm

And, doesn't this also say something about the validity of CT notes? If there are two cuvees, then it unfairly makes CT less reliable. If there are people who can't review a wine low, even if it sucked, because of a JM96, or any other critic, what use is their note to me?
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #50  Postby Max Marinucci » July 16th 2009, 1:31pm

Keith Levenberg wrote:
Peter C. wrote:
Keith Levenberg wrote:
Roberto Rogness wrote:Greg, I meant "Isn't him calling out a winery for giving him fraudulent samples a big deal?". I don't think I have ever seen that come out of any critics mouth before.
Well, there was the Parker/Faiveley affair.
Ooo do tell, never heard that one and I suspect a search on ebob will come up empty.
Parker wrote that the Faiveley wines he bought in the U.S. were consistently inferior to what was shown to him at the winery, and obliquely implied there was some non-kosher reason for that. Faiveley sued Parker, which resulted in Parker's becoming persona non grata virtually everywhere in Burgundy. The settlement seems to prohibit Parker from ever talking about the situation or Faiveley in general.


Which, by the way, and without a hint of a doubt, having Parker out of Burgundy is the best thing that has ever happened to the region and to all Burgundy lovers out there. Not to say that Meadows doesn't move markets but at least we don't have mounds of wines with 17% alcohol that tastes like Syrah now.
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