Lettie Teague on "Good" versus "Great" Wine with some WB Board Members

[WvanGorp]

http://www.foodandwine.com/articles/is- ... -overrated

[Todd F r e n c h]

I read it, and enjoyed it. Chris Freeman, in particular.

Someone remind me never to bring wine to Scott Manlin, lest I 'embarrass' myself...

Wilfred, you are everywhere, man!

[Scott Manlin]

I read it, and enjoyed it. Chris Freeman, in particular.

Someone remind me never to bring wine to Scott Manlin, lest I 'embarrass' myself...

Wilfred, you are everywhere, man!

Ha Ha.. it was the context... I swapped out the Usseglio "classique" for a Cuvee de Mon Aieul.. it was all good...

[Roberto Rogness]

"'These guys don't drink Austrian wines. For them, it's Burgundy or Bordeaux." Phil had thought about bringing a Pinot Gris from Alois Kracher, the late, great Austrian winemaker, saying, "The wine screams terroir for $16 a bottle." Why didn't he bring it? Phil shrugged. "Not in this crowd.'"

One of the saddest things I have EVER read on a wine board.

[Scott Manlin]

"'These guys don't drink Austrian wines. For them, it's Burgundy or Bordeaux." Phil had thought about bringing a Pinot Gris from Alois Kracher, the late, great Austrian winemaker, saying, "The wine screams terroir for $16 a bottle." Why didn't he bring it? Phil shrugged. "Not in this crowd.'"

One of the saddest things I have EVER read on a wine board.

Also not entirely true... I have been drinking Austrian wines (thanks to my good friend Klaus Puck) since 98... love Austrian Riesling and Gruner Veltliner... though for me, they are more summery or "fish" and "poultry" wines...

[Brian G r a f s t r o m]

Well, that certainly does not represent someone’s finest hour; the question is whose? Ms. Teague's? Manlin's? the others'? or all of the above?

[mike pobega]

A couple things come to mind:

Is Ms Teague not wine savvy? She sure does many wine articles, but each one reads like her first, or second.

If Mr Manlin were to leave Chicago, would the lights go out on Ms Teague's future wine articles? It seems he is her 'go to' subject, when she needs to go to.

Other than that it was a fun read. Mr Freeman should sign up here.

cheers!

[G. D y e r]

With all due respect to Scott and Wilfred, this article reinforces the stereotype of the stuffy wine collector. I mean a guest brings a pair of not just highly regarded but quite expensive wines, and one is embarrassing and the other is cooking wine? It might be one thing to suggest they aren't an ideal fit given the more mature wines being poured and the apparent narrow spectrum of appreciation of the crowd. But the way it's phrased by Teague (and maybe that is a non-trivial point), it comes across as rather pretentious and insulting.

In fairness, the generosity in sharing that is shown is laudable. It's just a bit disheartening that folks can't appreciate wines based on their individual merits.

[Jorge Henriquez]

Guys, let's try to remember.....it's ALL subjective AND relative.

Although this particular line did catch my eye:

In fact, I've had good wines for under $15, although according to Dan Posner, a wine merchant in White Plains, New York, they couldn't have been good, not at that price. A good wine costs $20 to $100 a bottle, said Dan. And a great wine? "Over $100," he opined.

[WvanGorp]

One of my greatest wine memories is a $15 white from Spain that Josh Raynolds brought to my home when I lived in NYC and we all tasted it blind. It was stunning. I said "This proves one doesn't need to spend a fortune for a fine bottle of wine." Anyone can pick a great First Growth; it takes a special quality to find a gem that's not famous or expensive.

[Todd F r e n c h]

One of my greatest wine memories is a $15 white from Spain that Josh Raynolds brought to my home when I lived in NYC and we all tasted it blind. It was stunning. I said "This proves one doesn't need to spend a fortune for a fine bottle of wine." Anyone can pick a great First Growth; it takes a special quality to find a gem that's not famous or expensive.

I think in a group setting almost ALL wines should be served blind at first, so there is no pre-judgment like this. Assumably, each person brings a wine that TRULY is good, though, at least to their own preferences.

[Loren Sonkin]

Interesting article. I do agree that great wines help to put wines in context.

The Huet, however, can be a great wine although 06 is not the vintage. 02 or 05 are both great wines that will age wonderfully and for my tastes, compete with the best Burgundies of a comprable vintage.

[Lyle Fass]

One of my greatest wine memories is a $15 white from Spain that Josh Raynolds brought to my home when I lived in NYC and we all tasted it blind. It was stunning. I said "This proves one doesn't need to spend a fortune for a fine bottle of wine." Anyone can pick a great First Growth; it takes a special quality to find a gem that's not famous or expensive.

Amen.

[Alan Rath]

A fun article. And it points out something that has in many ways turned me away from most offlines and wine gatherings in general: More often than not, it's about the price of the wine, not the quality of the wine. The Huet that Lettie brought is, in my mind, every bit as great a bottle as anything else on the table that night. But it was pushed aside, mainly because it's a $30 wine, not $300. Or the Pichler, though a relatively expensive wine, is well under $100, so it can't possibly be considered worthy of "greatness" in the company of so many $500-1000 bottles. A good article, interesting, but also a bit sad in a way.

[B Stucker]

I read it, and enjoyed it. Chris Freeman, in particular.

Yes. Never has a description been more apt than " Chris, the amateur".

[Rick Gregory]

"Great wine is something else altogether. Great wine is produced in small quantities and commands big prices, especially in the much-hyped vintages. Great wine can only be experienced once in a while. But, as great wine only gets more and more expensive and good wine gets cheaper and cheaper, I've been wondering lately if greatness is overrated. "

I stopped at that point.

[Brian G r a f s t r o m]

"Great wine is something else altogether. Great wine is produced in small quantities and commands big prices, especially in the much-hyped vintages. Great wine can only be experienced once in a while. But, as great wine only gets more and more expensive and good wine gets cheaper and cheaper, I've been wondering lately if greatness is overrated. "

I stopped at that point.

It’s a good thing you did; it only got worse after that.

[Keith Levenberg (Online)]

Someone needs to send you guys to Huet Reeducation Camp.

[Bill Tex Landreth]

I read it, and enjoyed it. Chris Freeman, in particular.

Yes. Never has a description been more apt than " Chris, the amateur".

....or that Mr. Freeman has the palate of a yak.

[Richard T r i m p i]

One of my greatest wine memories is a $15 white from Spain that Josh Raynolds brought to my home when I lived in NYC and we all tasted it blind. It was stunning. I said "This proves one doesn't need to spend a fortune for a fine bottle of wine." Anyone can pick a great First Growth; it takes a special quality to find a gem that's not famous or expensive.

Amen.

Double Amen.

RT

[Bill Tex Landreth]

Someone needs to send you guys to Huet Reeducation Camp.

Is that better or worse than band camp?

[Phillip F r a n k s]

Only thing I could think of to sum up this article and it's participants.

[Todd F r e n c h]

+1 Franks.

I would challenge anyone who thinks that way to spend some time drinking wine blind. Look at some recent notes about a Dehlinger syrah that blew (I think it was Loren Sonkin) away!

Great wines are NOT priced at a certain level - they can be at any price. I've had many an expensive wine that was incredibly disappointing.

[G. D y e r]

A good article, interesting, but also a bit sad in a way.

It's the end that's the saddest, and probably not by accident. Teague opens up that CdP, which should have been an enjoyable experience, but it has been made dull not because of what it is, but because of what it isn't.

[Jorge Henriquez]

I read it, and enjoyed it. Chris Freeman, in particular.

Yes. Never has a description been more apt than " Chris, the amateur".

....or that Mr. Freeman has the palate of a yak.

Wait wait wait, are you saying that Chris "Amateur" Freeman is in reality our very own lovable Freeker, A.K.A. Yak-man?!?!?!?

[Keith Levenberg (Online)]

Also not entirely true... I have been drinking Austrian wines (thanks to my good friend Klaus Puck) since 98... love Austrian Riesling and Gruner Veltliner... though for me, they are more summery or "fish" and "poultry" wines...

Can't get on board with that one at all. What makes Austrian riesling summery but white Burgundy profound? I have had far many more profound, great Austrian wines than profound, great white Burgundies. And I think the world is divided between people who know this (and, indeed, figure it's so obvious it's not even debatable) and people who just don't feel like wrapping their heads around the esoterica of another wine region...

[M A T T H A R T L E Y]

One of my greatest wine memories is a $15 white from Spain that Josh Raynolds brought to my home when I lived in NYC and we all tasted it blind. It was stunning. I said "This proves one doesn't need to spend a fortune for a fine bottle of wine." Anyone can pick a great First Growth; it takes a special quality to find a gem that's not famous or expensive.

What was the wine!?!?!?!?!?!

[Loren Sonkin]

The other problem with this kind of thinking is that it ignores the single best part of drinking wine and that is sharing bottles with others. Lettie's CdP, shared with her friends, is infinitely more enjoyable than any bottle of wine drunk alone. I think we all agree on that or most of us anyway. Way too much emphasis on price (and the tradtions that created the pricing structure) in this article.

I am not a fan of blind tasting in general, but one thing it is good for is to get rid of these preconcieved notions that price equal quality.

[Bob Kaminski]

Well, if I had not been a wine BB participant reading and exchanging TNs and comments with the people listed in the article, I might conclude that they were pretentious wine snobs. I know that not to be the case due to that interaction, but the article does lead to some interesting debate about why many are intimidated by wine in general.

Why are the great wines great? Mostly because we have been taught that they are great by fancy classifications from centuries past and the omnipotent and infallible professional wine critics where many have reduced the totally subjective quality of wine to a numerical score.

As Yoda says to Luke..."you must unlearn what you have learned"

I guess that mean we must think outside the box!

We have been trained to equate greatness with numerical score or label pedigree which directly correlated to price of admission. So, is it any wonder why people tend to perpetuate this paradigm?

The simple brown bag, into which the expensive and the moderate priced (OK so that is a relative scale right there) wine is placed, is the great truth teller.

In the end regardless of the price, be it $10, $100, or $1000, you just pee it out anyway.


Oh crap I must be one of those AWFEs

[Bill Tex Landreth]

In the end regardless of the price, be it $10, $100, or $1000, you just pee it out anyway.

Not necessarily....

[Bob Kaminski]

Also not entirely true... I have been drinking Austrian wines (thanks to my good friend Klaus Puck) since 98... love Austrian Riesling and Gruner Veltliner... though for me, they are more summery or "fish" and "poultry" wines...

Can't get on board with that one at all. What makes Austrian riesling summery but white Burgundy profound? I have had far many more profound, great Austrian wines than profound, great white Burgundies. And I think the world is divided between people who know this (and, indeed, figure it's so obvious it's not even debatable) and people who just don't feel like wrapping their heads around the esoterica of another wine region...

Hey Keith, don't you know that premox adds complexity.

[Peter C.]

"Great wine is something else altogether. Great wine is produced in small quantities and commands big prices, especially in the much-hyped vintages. Great wine can only be experienced once in a while. But, as great wine only gets more and more expensive and good wine gets cheaper and cheaper, I've been wondering lately if greatness is overrated. "

I stopped at that point.

It got worse, good call.

[Alan Rath]

The other problem with this kind of thinking is that it ignores the single best part of drinking wine and that is sharing bottles with others..

You can't say that the group (and I mean no disrespect to the group of folks at the dinner, they are all fine, upstanding wine geeks) didn't share these bottles with others. But I agree with what I think the underlying sentiment of your comment is: too many wine-themed dinners end up with a dozen or more great bottles (regardless of how greatness is defined, either by quality, rarity, price, you name it), flashing past all of the participants at high speed. If this had been a dinner where any single one of those bottles was the only wine on the table (or at most 2-3), and it was savored and discussed at length for the evening, then I think you'd have something worth talking about. But this kind of event (again, not to single out this group, it happens everywhere, over and over) is almost more a display of ostentation then of wine appreciation.

[Bob Kaminski]

In the end regardless of the price, be it $10, $100, or $1000, you just pee it out anyway.

Not necessarily....

You got a closed-loop system there Tex?

[Bill Tex Landreth]

In the end regardless of the price, be it $10, $100, or $1000, you just pee it out anyway.

Not necessarily....

You got a closed-loop system there Tex?

I was thinking more along the line of reversal of fortune if you consume too much.