Do you find Pinot Noir winemakers are often quite good at Bordeaux varieties?

The, “Best Under $60 USA Cab” thread got me thinking. I posted, in response to another post, that I agreed that Sineann’s regular Columbia Valley CS is a screaming deal. I was thinking that Peter Rosback was primarily a Pinot Noir producer (although he/they now make tons of other stuff), but clearly has a knack for amazing wines made from Bordeaux varieties. However, as I mulled this over, I couldn’t think of many other Pinot Noir-first producers that make a bit of Cab, Merlot, etc. Of course, there’s Rivers-Marie, but I don’t necessarily think of TRB as a Pinot-first guy. Flipping this on its head, there are quite a few Cabernet Sauvignon (and blends)-first winemakers and wineries that make Pinot Noir (Peter Michael, Paul Hobbs).

So, a two-part question: 1.) Are there any other Pinot Noir-focused winemakers or wineries that make excellent wines with Bordeaux varieties? 2.) Do you find that those are (generally) more deft at this than the reverse (meaning, Cab-first makers/wineries making amazing Pinot Noir)?

Dehlinger has a light touch with Cab.

I agree with Glenn, Dehlinger comes to mind, and I love their Cabernet based wines. Aubert used to make a Cabernet based wine, but I think it was discontinued and was not very well received. I’d like to see what Kevin Harvey and the Rhys team could do with a top notch vineyard.

Mount Eden and Arnot Roberts. Agree that Dehlinger cabs are very under rated.

Mike Smith is not only a superb cab maker, but his Ancillary and Patine pinots are excellent as well.

One challenge for many, is it’s not possible/practical e.g. through appellation rules where the winemaker is located, or because the climate that suits one is probably not ideal for the other.

Some seem capable when presented with the opportunity, though inevitably there is compromise if the grapes are grown in the same location.

Don’t know about Cab, but Kevin, Jeff, Javier and team are in the process of turning their attention to Nebbiolo, Carricante, Chenin Blanc and Zinfandel (Aeris).

I love this question and will take a controversial position…

I think winemakers who are primarily pinot noir makers make softer style cabernets and that winemakers who are cabernet makers first make ‘bigger’ style pinot noirs.

When I think of Mike Smith wines, I think cabernet first and think his pinots follow that style with a bigger structure (maybe more extracted?) to his pinots.

Williams Selyem cabernets are done more in ‘pinot style,’ to me, as an example.

Both directions are nice, but I think perhaps there is a family resemblance in many cases.

Peter Michael pinots seem denser in style, in keeping with my likely foolish notion of that winemaker being more a cabernet/Bordeaux style winemaker.

My theory falls to pieces for Rivers Marie…I think both their cabs and pinots are pretty much just right.

I will try to think of other examples.

I will not be offended if my lack of insight is exposed by others!

I’m not sure Briceland is a Pinot Noir first winery, but Andrew has a deft touch with not only Bordeaux varieties but Zin, Syrah, Arneis, and sparkling wines as well.

Taking Ghostwriter in isolation from the plethora of his other labels, Kenny Likitprakong fits the description, and his Bates Ranch cab is first rate (his Hobo CS is an incredible value as well, though I don’t find the Camp CS as exciting).

They should rip out a pinot vineyard and plant it to a Latour cepage. Heck, it’s not like they don’t have the land.

To quote from the Good Book, “you cannot serve two masters.”

Luc Morlet.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the mention. I did learn red wine making on PN. I learned from my step-father, Joe Collins. He was clearly a PN maker and would make one other red for those buyers that would say PN is not really a red.

If the wines are good, give credit to the farmers and Joe, for teaching me the trade. If there are any that aren’t good, that’s all me.

Seriously, I am fortunate to have access to the good/unique vineyards that I get to make wine from. Sometimes I taste a wine and think that I have had quite a run of luck.

Fred Scherrer is another Pinot producer who produces great Cabs (and Syrah, Zin and Chard). I think there is deftness to all the wines that is sometimes lacking with cab focused producers.

I enjoyed the 2006 Dehlinger Claret last week with you. Did you think it was a smooth and elegant Cab?

Yes it was Joanne. Excellent texture and length.

Those of us who have met you agree that it must be luck.

All joking aside, your Cab hits a sweet spot for me in terms of both flavor profile and value.

I think I agree. There does seem to be a “lighter” touch to Bordeaux-variety-based wines when made by the hands of someone who cut their winemaking teeth on Pinot Noir. Good examples above: I hadn’t thought about Dehlinger and/or Mt. Eden. Also agree with you, Anton, that Cab-first winemakers tend to make larger-scaled Pinot Noirs.

Growning both Pinot Noir and Bordeaux varieties in the same geographical area is another conversation…or maybe it isn’t. It think we can all agree that, generally speaking, those two “families” of grapes need quite different environments to truly thrive and make great juice. Farmers deserve a lot of credit, but I’m really talking about what happens with (theoretically) the same fruit with two different winemakers’ approaches.

An interesting thread indeed. And one that really does ‘beg’ the question of whether winemakers are able to ‘get out of their boxes’ to work with other varieties.

Not to run parallels here, but I oftentimes see this with cab/pinot producers working with rhone varieties - especially grenache and mourvedre.

Another name that comes to mind is Justin Willet of Tyler Winery down here - he also does Lieu Dit and does a nice, fresh Cab Franc.

Cheers.