2002 Frédéric Magnien Vosne-Romanée 1er Cru Les Suchots- France, Burgundy, Côte de Nuits, Vosne-Romanée 1er Cru (2/11/2017)
A bit of seepage around the cork but the wine was fine. Intense nose of blackberry, raspberry and cedar notes. Nice intense flavours on taste that lend to a long finish. Good Vosne spice. Very elegant and almost Grand Cru level wine. Very enjoyable.
I don’t get the criticism of Frederic Magnien wines being oaky or not good. Almost all aged examples I have tried have been excellent wines. There may be a slight oak note in some on release but this quickly integrates in the wines. The Suchots is excellent and different village appellations have been outstanding. I wonder how much of the criticism of wine on WBs is from reputation rather than actually trying the wines. For some context I agree the D. Laurent and S. Esmonin wines are too oaky.
I agree this is a good producer who likes to use robust degrees of oak. If the concentration of the wines and the quality of the vintage can handle new oak, why not? I’ve never heard of anyone criticizing DRC for using a bit of new oak…
Exactly. Anyone ever go to the domaine with ADV and spit out those new wines exclaiming “Ugh! Too much new oak in this La Tache!” I know, I know, some one out there is going to say these are “special barrels” for DRC grown in special forests and babied carefully through the cooperage process etc…but new oak is generally new oak, and imparts flavor to any wine.
Once again it is matching the oak to the fruit and the kind of style the producer is trying to achieve. Does not overoaking a wine seem a lot less prevalent now in most fine wine producers than in the past? With the expense of new barrels and the criticism by consumers of wooden wines, is this not starting to become a rarer fault? Of course there is still the segment of the drinking public that wants their Rombauer big and sweet. But then again some people like lots of salt in their diet.
One of the hard things in wine is telling when a young wine that has a lot of oak will fall apart with age and when the oak will integrate into the wine. The problem, in part, is that it depends on how good the underlying materials are, which are hidden by the oak. In many cases, this is the point of the oak - to hide what little there is in fruit, etc.
I know that if I were the genius wine taster that Jurgin and Dennis apparently are, I would be able to cut through the oak to distinguish between the oak wines that will age and those that will fall apart. They make it seem so easy. But, being much less talented than these two geniuses, and having vastly less experience than these two since I have only been tasting young wines for about 35-40 years, the only way I know to do this is experience with the producer and, frankly, I don’t like taking risks on really oaky wines unless I have tasted mature wines from the producer in the past.
This is really scary for me in Bordeaux where so many producers are making wines very differently than they did in the past - so that it is hard to know whether experience matters.
As for Magnien, I bought some 1999s and 2001s because they were very well priced for the terroir. I later got scared off from the producer by tasting young wines that I thought had too much oak. However, now I have tasted some of the wines I bought before tasting and they taste pretty good.
I really don’t pay that much attention to who does what with oak. There’s a lot of people making good Burgundy. I avoided this one as I had read that his wines were oaky.
That’s it.
the sarcasm in your post is not necessary. I taste and drink wine as long as you. Just express your opinion. Everyone can come to his own verdict. I had a 2002 Morey St. Denis from this producer recently and liked it. There was a hint of oak (chocolate) but very well integrated. The wine was balanced and fine IMO.
The example with DRC is telling indeed IMO. People are often talking about the typical Vosne Spice in DRC wines. This spice is certainly coming from the oak and not the wine itself or the terroir. Rousseau is an icon producer too. In young Rousseau wines the oak adds a dimension. I talked to Monsieur Rousseau and he admitted it.
I had the pleasure to attend an oak seminar of Taransaud. This was very educational.
On the other hand – you are right – some wines were actually raised in too much oak or wood of minor quality (more often the case). But Frederic Mangnien is a fine producer IMO.
OK, then, I thought your post about oakaphobia was uncalled for. People are correct to be concerned about overly oaked young wines because an awful lot of them are hiding flaws in the wine and the wines fall apart as they get older. Surely, there are great producers that use new oak. With producers I know well, I can dismiss the oak because I know it will integrate. But if I taste a young wine from a producer I do not know where all I can taste is the oak, I am not going to buy it. Since you say you have many years of experience tasting young wines, then you know I am correct about the dangers of buying young wines smothered in new oak from producers you do not know and should clarify to anyone on this board who might have taken you seriously what you actually mean. There are a lot of people on this board who do not have as much experience who might have been very confused to their financial detriment by what you posted.
I will have to re-read my post. Must have missed the part where I was claiming to be a genius. However I do respect Howard claiming ignorance about judging a wine in the future. Yet, is it not interesting to note that consumers are scared away from producers who have a “reputation” of “using too much oak” without a little more experience? My point is that there are certainly producers who drown the fruit they have with oak chips, but is this really the modus operandi in Burgundy? I give most of them a lot more credit than that.
FYI Mr Cooper, I started seriously collecting and drinking wine in 1987. Still a youngster in this hobby I suppose. I bow to your vast experience
+1. There’s a lot of received wisdom about oak that I have learned to ignore until I have tried a mature example from the producer. Sometimes the wisdom is wise, other times, not so wise.
There was an era in the late-90s and early 00s where I think there was more overt oak and extraction in Burgundy. There was a recent thread on a Perrot-Minot 05 where his alleged big, oaky “style” came up, and having spoken with him about it and tasted multiple vintages before and after his move towards less handling and “winemaking,” the wines are night and day from 04 afterwards. But he still routinely gets criticized for his old style in discussions of new wines - though the critics can never say which recent vintages they have actually tried. I had this happen with Groffier at least once as well. This can be frustrating, but while the skepticism about evolutions in styles may be merited, people often try to sound far more authoritative about wines they have not tried than they really should.
your argument works the other way round as well. People are often misinformed here on this board. Oak and ripe fruit are obviously something nasty here for many. But that often does´t reflect the opinion of the majority. The cellar tracker scores are telling.
Furthermore: Michel Magnien is a fine producer IMO. The wines with age on them doesn’t´t taste too oaky IMO. I like them. Unfortunately the wine of question is not on cellartracker. But other 2002 are. And most of them got very good ratings. It´s unfair to ignore this.
I agree with you about wines from the late 90s and early 00s. For example, I am not sure how well some Faiveley wines from that era will turn out - although I really loved their wines from the 70s and 80s and think they are back on track in more recent vintages. I have not liked the wines I have tasted from Perrot-Minot, although I have not tasted any of their wines for a number of years. Another wine I have generally not liked is Clos du Tart, although I again have not tasted this for a few years. I much prefer Clos des Lambrays.
By contrast, there are a number of wineries that have traditionally used a good bit of new oak that I like a lot. One that comes to mind is Rossignol-Trapet.
P-M wines are night and day now. The 02 MSD I opened within the past year or two was an oaky, over-extracted mess of the exact type we’re talking about from that era - and I’m pretty sure there will be no swan to come.
My only experience with recent young Clos de Tart has been with the 08 La Forge, which was both very good and very approachable. I’ve have been priced out from that year forward on the top wine, but based on experiences with mature Clos de Tart, they can be magical, though only time will tell. I have no intentions of cracking what little I have for a few years yet. Side-by-side when mature I have always liked Clos de Tart over Lambrays, though mature Lambrays can also be pretty special!
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