I’n my search for an older Brunello: Ideas on an aged killer Brunello - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers I called a couple retailers and found for example that Jaime at Chamber St. Wines offered a provenance guarantee for the older bottles I was interested in (thanks George, fellow berserker, for the tip). I noticed in a recent email that Benchmark Wines offered a provenance guarantee on the wines being sold in the particular collection. In talking with a fellow at K@L wines about a 2001 Casanova Di Neri he said that provenance would be guaranteed. He also looked into my history of buying wines there. I presume looking into the “trust” issue.
This seems awesome to me. How many retailers out there are doing that? It seems that the retailer would have to have a strong trust with the customer that he/she would be telling truth about cork taint or heat spoilage or maybe even counterfeit wine. It would be unlikely that the retailer wants anybody to send the half drunk bottle back (assuming the buyer is from another state). Jaime said for him it’s a trust issue. i.e. - knowing the customer and knowing the customer has the skills for example to tell a corked wine from an old earthy wine with a moldy cork top that may have normal raisiny flavors but no cork taint.
Make sure you are not confusing provenance with wines that are sound. It is one thing to guarantee a wine being real, it is another, to do same for an older wine being in good condition. Generally speaking, with older wines, you puts down your money, you takes your chances.
In Chambers Street’s case, they guarantee what’s in the bottle. To call it a “provenance guarantee” misstates (and understates) how they stand behind the wines. If you buy an old bottle that’s shot, they cheerfully refunded your money. I know because in a handful of cases (an old Franken sylvaner, a 1974 Nebbiolo d’Alba and a 1979 Brunello), I’ve had to call on the guarantee. Their prices are very fair to begin with, but this really makes them extraordinarily good because they bear the risk of something over the hill, corked or otherwise faulty.
Yep - picked the wrong word. I guess I thought provenance guarantee meant that the wine was guaranteed to have been treated properly from 1st owner to current status. i.e. - that every step along the way the wine was stored in ideal conditions. Reading the Benchmark guarantee leads me to think it protects anything to do with “storage”. But couldn’t bad storage lead to cork taint? i.e. - TCA in the cellar infecting the corks? I thought TCA could come from cellars infected with TCA in addition to TCA right from the beginning…
Here’s an excerpt from a recent offering and the Provenance guarantee below…
"Benchmark Wine Group is absolutely thrilled to unveil such an elegant and profound cellar of world-class Champagne and Burgundy coming from the Big Apple. This collection was acquired from a true connoisseur of the top Champagne houses including Krug, Moet & Chandon’s Dom Perignon and Taittinger along with Burgundy’s finest from Bouchard, Henri Boillot and Raveneau!
He purchased his Krug bottles directly from the estate and many more producers from trusted local suppliers to store in his custom-built home cellar and professional storage units. We sent our Cellar Team to inspect each bottle only find how amazing these bottles were stored. Take it from us with our Provenance Guarantee, that bottles from this cellar should be soon be in yours, but act now as these bottles will go fast! These bottles are expected to arrive and be ready to ship in early February".
Provenance Guarantee
“We acquire fine and rare wine from well-maintained private cellars and reputable wholesalers after provenance is verified by our team of acquisitions professionals. Before purchasing a private collection, we travel to meet the collector and inspect storage conditions to verify provenance. As a result, we guarantee the provenance of all wines that we sell. If you open a wine purchased from us within six months of the purchase date and the wine shows signs of damage due to improper storage, we ask that you re-cork the bottle with the remaining wine inside and contact us immediately”.
If you read the Benchmark carefully, while they say they guarantee provenance, it looks to me like that (a) they are just making representations about the provenance and are (b) only guaranteeing that the wines aren’t damaged.
“We acquire fine and rare wine from well-maintained private cellars and reputable wholesalers after provenance is verified by our team of acquisitions professionals. Before purchasing a private collection, we travel to meet the collector and inspect storage conditions to verify provenance. As a result, > we guarantee the provenance of all wines that we sell. If you open a wine purchased from us within six months of the purchase date and the wine shows signs of damage due to improper storage> , we ask that you re-cork the bottle with the remaining wine inside and contact us immediately.”
The last sentence seems to be the substance of the guarantee; they aren’t saying, “If you later find that the wine wasn’t purchased directly from the winery cellar, you can return it even if the wine is sound.”
It sounds like their provenance verification is limited to seeing the current storage and talking to the seller – not to auditing the seller’s claims about the entire chain of ownership.
In most cases, a guarantee that the wine is in good condition is what the buyer mainly cares about. But if the wine is super old and/or collectible (e.g., a Bordeaux from the 1800s), the buyer might want a true guarantee of provenance, which would entail verifying original purchase receipts, or estate inventories or some other records from decades or centuries back.
Note that they are not guaranteeing against TCA or other faults that aren’t necessarily related to storage. And sometimes a wine is shot even though it was well stored. The cork may just not have been perfect and the wine is oxidized at an age when it shouldn’t be. The Benchmark wording doesn’t appear to cover that case. It pretty clearly wouldn’t cover pre-moxed white Burgundy, either.
I’ve never heard of TCA in a storage cellar infecting wines after they’ve been bottled. I think what you may be thinking of is where TCA is in a winery before bottling.
Reflecting on what the Benchmark guarantee says, the wine shows signs of damage due to improper storage
I believe this theoretically could cover a corked bottle if you can prove to Benchmark that the taint could be caused outside the winery. And you’re right - just because the current cellar where Benchmark visits can be pristine and bottles look pristine doesn’t mean the wine didn’t spend time in other questionable environments. It could have been passed along the way on wooden pallets /shipping containers tainted with TCA.
I remember reading that TCA can be present in cellars and if in abundance can pass through the cork and taint an otherwise viable wine. Here is what Wikipedia says:
“Cork taint is a broad term referring to a wine fault characterized by a set of undesirable smells or tastes found in a bottle of wine, especially spoilage that can only be detected after bottling, aging and opening. Though modern studies have shown that other factors can also be responsible for taint – including wooden barrels, storage conditions and the transport of corks and wine – the cork stopper is normally considered to be responsible, and a wine found to be tainted on opening is said to be “corked” or “corky”. Cork taint can affect wines irrespective of price and quality level.
The chief cause of cork taint is the presence of the chemical compounds 2,4,6-trichloroanisole (TCA) or 2,4,6-tribromoanisole (TBA) in the wine, which in many cases will have been transferred from the cork, but which also can have been transferred through the cork rather than from it”.
I still believe a retailer should stand behind a corked bottle regardless of whether it was new wine obtained through the appropriate channels or wines being sold as “library releases”, wines from a “collection”, whatever. Unless they say wines purchased “As is” or the infamous “we make every attempt to make sure our wines are of guaranteed provenance but there are inherent risks in purchasing older wines of which we cannot be held responsible”.
I just wanted to chime in with a +1 on the Chambers St. guarantee. They have always stood behind older (and younger) bottles of wine, and they have always met or exceeded my expectations when something is off.
But couldn’t bad storage lead to cork taint? i.e. - TCA in the cellar infecting the corks? I thought TCA could come from cellars infected with TCA in addition to TCA right from the beginning.
I generally operate off of this premise, that I assume the risk. I know some retailers that I deal with, like Chambers, may accept a return, but personally I would feel crappy about returning, let’s say, a 1964 Chateau XYZ that I ordered, which just turned out to not be good anymore (i.e., over the hill). Corked is a different issue. If they are honest about the condition of the bottle - actually some retailers show pictures - and I buy it, I own it. Candidly, given that I buy most “backfill” bottles from out of state, I generally own it anyway even if it is corked.
Ok, not everyone’s fine wine retailer. And we are not talking old bottles obviously. But when it comes to cork taint WTSO replaces wine no questions asked. Same wine if available or something equivalent.
Update with K&L’s policy. Emailed them today and got this answer:
"Older wines (6 years or older for red and 3 years or older for white), purchased under our retail category, are purchased as is. Unfortunately, with older wines, you’ll want to go in knowing that there is some risk involved with older wines, and make the decision to purchase them according to how much risk you are willing to accept.
Thanks for checking in."
Interesting that the OP heard something different. They must make exceptions for those with history with the retailer.
I wish I remembered the name of the salesperson from K@L but based on me looking for an older Brunello he felt the 2001 Casanova di Neri Tenuta Nuova would be the call. I asked if him if I had any guarantee on the provenance of the wine and protection against a bottle with TCA and definitely said it in these terms. “If you have a problem with this wine we will take care of you. Just call us up and we will make things right”. I did not press him on the particulars but it sounded good to me. So my wine for my wife’s BDAY came down to that wine or the 1970 Mascarello Barolo (1970 - her birthyear) from Chamber Street.
I can only think the discrepancy in their guarantee would be because that wine was stored there since release and they have the ability to return it to their supplier if it were to be bad. This as opposed to wines they obtain through other channels not allowing any returns.
I can’t think my purchase history is that impressive. I’ve ordered a few cases throughout the years. But he did bring me up in the computer. So perhaps this salesperson was trying to give the best pitch to sell the wine and felt he could stretch the policy.
Yeah, on its own, provenance can have a few definitions. When I asked the question, I specifically said: corked, heat damaged, TCA, etc, and got that answer.
That said, I’m sure exceptions can be made, especially for those with history. IMO, someone who’s bought a few cases over the years would be an exception.