On numerous occasions I’ve had young reds with a high percentage of whole cluster with an unpleasant “aspartame” finish for lack of a better term. That is an artificial sweetener flavor that tends to persist in the finish. These wines are generally on the less ripe end of the spectrum. (Arnot-Roberts syrah, Wilde Farm syrah, Broc Cellars zin as examples, in case I’m just way off base on the stems here.)
I don’t see similar descriptors in Cellartracker tasting notes however. Is their a synonym more often used in wine tasting vocabulary?
And is that typically a flavor that transforms or fades with age? Personally I find it detracts from otherwise pleasant wines, but maybe I’m just drinking them too early?
I hope some winemakers will weigh in! Off the top of my head stem inclusion often goes hand-in-hand with a whole cluster / carbonic character, which can seem a bit candied (Beaujolais is the extreme example). That combined with the slight bitterness from stem tannins (not always, but sometimes) could create the impression of artificial sweetner.
My 2012 Moore Ranch Pinot had a fair bit more (proportionately) than prior years…and I’ve noticed a bit of a sweet character to it, compared to prior (more savory). I haven’t noticed an artificial sweetener aspect to it, which I really dislike (I’m not fond of sweetness in red wines generally). Fortunately it’s dissipated with time in the bottle, and with air time, so it seems like a short term issue, in this case anyways.
Regarding carbonic…the 12 MR had stems, but the grapes were completely destemmed first, so carbonic wasn’t an issue there. Or wasn’t much of an issue…you can get some carbonic character with whole berry fermentations sometimes, but that’s not common with Pinot cuz it has such thin skins.
I think I know what you’re getting at, but have never written it in a tasting note. I’m not quite sure how to describe it, either, or what could be causing it.
Thanks for the comments all. I don’t have any bojo with age, let alone any other wines produced in a carbonic style. Does that candied finish tend go away with age?
Eric, interesting you saw this with stems but not carbonic. Glad to hear your 2012 transformed!
Stems in a newly opened young wine taste sort of soapy to me, very non-vinous. I used to hate them but then I had some bottles on day two and saw big improvement. Knowing it’s temporary, the flavor no longer bothers me in a young wine, it’s like excess oak that I know from experience with that wine or winemaker will integrate, I can look past it. In an older wine, I like stems, stems seem more vinous, more like spices that are part of the wine rather than something that gets in the way of the wine. But for me, albeit in a different way from your experience, in a young wine a large amount of stem flavor seems non-vinous and intrusive.
If you mean Beaujolais, what does that have to do with it? If you age Beaujolais Nouveau, you’re likely to be disappointed. Don’t assume that all Beaujolais is produced that way or that there is only one way to do the carbonic maceration.
There are wines in most regions that are produced using some carbonic maceration. Some age well. One reason to do it that way is to preserve the fruitiness, which may be the artificial sweetener aspect. But that doesn’t come from the stems.
This is certainly an interesting read - thanks for sharing.
But it also goes to show how little we truly know about stem inclusion in wines. In reading the remarks for winemakers in Australia, Burgundy and South Africa, you get very different ‘ideas’ of what is ‘added’ by using stems - and, guess what - they are all correct! There is no consistency or direct ‘correlation’ using stems and having a specific ‘effect’ each time.
Many winemakers discuss that using stems decreases color due to absorption into the stems themselves or because of the higher potassium content of the stems, leading to higher pH’s. I have not found this to be the case consistently with my wines at all.
The ‘aspartame’ concept discussed in the OP is an interesting one - and I would agree it most likely has more to do with the ‘intentional’ or ‘unintentional’ partial carbonic quality of stem inclusion ferments. No matter how you try to crush all clusters, it’s almost inevitable that you will have varying levels of in tact grapes and clusters at the end of fermentation.
In my limited experience of tasting verticals I would say that the stem flavor profile stays the same from young vintage through old while the fruit around it changes
I hope that is not always the case. I have several wines I’ve tried on release that are presently too stemmy for me and I have assumed the stems would transform in all of them to something more integrated. If this is always the case then I am not buying any more stemmy wines. I’m thinking of Prieure Roch mainly.
Soutard was an old school St Emilion known for its stem inclusion, back in the olden days. The wines were great for aging, although the less ripe vintages were more tolerable, than joyful.
If you see older ones that would be a wine to try to see a good example of how a stemmy wine might taste. Not sure what’s an obvious peer/cohort to compare it to, beyond another St Emilion of the same vintage. They are not widely available though.
From what I understand they have decided to make a more modern wine now.
I don’t have strong views on this: I can enjoy boneless chicken, as well as chicken cooked bone in…and I view the stems as sort of like that. I grant that making destemmed wines takes far more labor and love, but there are charms to all the different ways of doing this.
PS: On that note, here’s a good book on winemaking that I’ve enjoyed available for a song on Amazon. You can’t even buy a beer for how cheap this is. Great pictures too.
Its my understanding stems eventually transform into aromatics and spiciness. However I haven’t seen how carbonic sweet fruitiness (my “aspartame”) may transform, or not.
I assume that every chemical component in a given bottle of wine interacts with other chemicals in the bottle as time passes. Anthocyanins, tannins, acids, sugars, etc, undergo changes precipitated by the interactions of other components.
For “stem notes” to just sit there, tapping their feet, while other elements of color, texture, and flavor dance about seems a little odd to me.
However, I do not believe that I have tasted many aged bottles made from whole-cluster fermentation…
While I wouldn’t go as far as Aspartame I’ve noticed it on young whole cluster Pinot and Syrah from Mike Smith, as compared side by side with their no-stems counterparts, so the less ripe disclaimer isn’t necessarily needed. I find that stems add a lift to the young wines that magnifies the fruit flavors.
I’m not familiar with the carbonic terms, I’ll have to dig into that one.
I’ve had a fair amount of pinot and syrah with whole cluster and most of the time it’s incredible wine.
On rare occasions when there’s not a lot of body in the wine, I notice a slightly astringent finish and I always contributed that to too much alcohol but maybe that’s the stem inclusions coming through too strong due to not enough fruit to support it.
I love whole cluster syrah and pinot, the nose of all-spice, baking spices is just soo tasty. It can add some interesting tannin too but it’s usually a positive note for me.
Rama, I’ve had similar experiences - have written in my notes about saccharine taste in an Anthill pinot, for instance. Didn’t chalk it up to being because of the stems, though it certainly seems possible. Will pay more attention to that in the future.
IMHO, flavors like that definitely subside with age. I use a lot of stems with the complete understanding that though the wines can be enjoyable in youth, often that’s not going to be the case. I think the payoff with 5-10 years in bottle is worth it.