Extraction vs concentration

Is there a difference? Usually in riper new world wines one sees the word “extracted” used a lot. On the other hand you typically see the word “concentrated” for things like burgundy GC. Thoughts?

I think the answers you’ll find are probably “yes and no”. I typically think of density (or weight) as indicative of concentration, but all red wines are subject to some level of extraction (maceration). Heavily extracted wines may be more tannic or textured due to longer macerations or more frequent punch-downs (with the belief that more raw character is pulled from the skins). Personally I don’t like the “extracted” term much because it really refers to a technique that could lead to a variety of different results in a wine. In that sense I’m not always sure it tells you that much, but I suppose more often than not in really is synonymous for “big” in the new world.

When I come across the terms, I just figure the writer is using “extracted” as slightly pejorative.

“Concentrated” is not.

But actually, the fact that you see the words is no indication that they’re correct or in any way meaningful, other than indicating an opinion.

Extracted should mean that a wine is in fact extracted, and that’s kind of meaningless because obviously if you have wine, something somewhere was extracted.

But what you actually do extract from the skins and flesh and seeds depends on many things. Is the wine too dark for the reviewer’s taste, or too tannic, or too whatever? Then it’s probably extracted.

If it has “layers” of flavor that are very intense, it’s “concentrated”. What is supposed to come next is a statement that it needs time and will be better in 10 years.

So, to help clarify further, would one suggest concentrated means an intense wine which was created using a “normal” amount of extraction, and that when people use the word extraction they are really suggesting “overextraction”, i.e. Extraction to the point where the wine becomes unbalanced from excess tanninss, bitterness from the skins, or some other potential “defect”.

Does this sound about right? Should folks really use the word overextracted instead?

Extraction is the method, concentration is the result of it depending on time, temperature and physical manipulation. Given the same raw material, and assumed there is an optimum of extraction, there should be an optimum of concentration, and anything beyond is: overextracted

I do not think of extraction and concentration is being anywhere near the same. Some of the most concentrated wines I have had in terms of flavor complexity and depth of flavor are not wines that use heavy extraction. To me, they are unrelated, just like color and concentration.

I agree, Howard, that what you say is true - through normal processing, due mostly to the variety, terroir, seasonal climate, and hangtime (ripeness), a wine can be made which is very concentrated and it is not due to overextraction. But, in cases where a winemaker does not have all the right ingredients available, they may try to overextract from the grapes, thereby (maybe) improving concentration with the potential result of introducing other issues like excessive tannins, bitterness, etc…

I also guess in other cases, an inexperienced winemaker may not know how much to manipulate the grapes/must and may (incorrectly) think the more punchdowns performed, etc, the better the wine.

In my view

• concentration is the result of the natural (liquid) fruit/juice/sugar/acids etc. in a wine, while
• extraction is a result of maceration, the leaching of the solid matters like peels, pips and stems during and after fermentation … and results in colour and tannins.

Therefore with longer maceration one can increase colour and tannins, but not concentration.
With too long maceration (too long for the natural concentration) the wine can become unbalanced.

Concentration is primary created in the vineyard, extraction is created in the cellar.

During pressing usually the natural concentration is transfered into the wine (with red wines after fermentation, with whites usually before), but at the end also pips and stems are squeezed which frees also (too much and too bitter) tannins.

So the right amount of maceration and pressing is crucial for a balanced wine.

Pavie-extracted. Latour-concentrated.

Thanks …nice thread

Well said

Yes…long maceration can extract lots of color and flavor. If it’s done in a bad vintge, the concentration won’t be especially good (that’s what bad vintages often mean: bad fruit), though plenty of that character will be extracted…much like a tea bag left in water for days…picking up good and bad characteristics, as the material being extracted into the liquid allows.

For me, concentration is about intensity of flavor, whereas extraction is about weight, viscosity and opacity. My TN’s often refer to flavor-to-weight ratio, which you could just as easily call the proportion of concentration to extraction.

From a winemaker’s perspective, concentration is something you have little control over once the fruit comes in the door, really a function of the ratio of flavor compounds to water (pretty closely related to skin/juice ratio on reds, a little more difficult to pin down on whites). Extraction is a result of how you manage fermentation, and just like oak, more is not always better. Bitterness, for instance, is rarely a good thing and is pretty much always an indicator of excessive extraction in reds or pressing too hard on whites. Like all things wine, there are exceptions and outliers…

It might be a hypersimplification, but the way I think about it is concentration is related to density and fruit and extraction is related to tannin and bitterness – it’s important that the two are well married and one doesn’t overshadow the other. It’s possible to under-extract, too, depending on your perspective.

Well, extraction is about color, too. That’s often where the confusion starts, as people equate color with concentration.

And, then there’s always reverse osmosis…to concentrate the must, right?

This is exactly how I think of it. For fun, we could throw ripe/overripe/ripeness into the mix, too.

No. An Austrian Riesling can have lots of concentration with little or no extraction/maceration.

Exactly.

Someone once suggested to me that concentration is in the vineyard, extraction is in the winery. I think that works, even if it’s not literally correct. I like the Pavie/extraction vs. Latour/concentration example above.

I suppose one could concentrate a wine in the winery with reverse osmosis or freezing or some other manipulation, but I don’t think that negates my previous response. It is an exception, though.

Gee, I think I heard that one, too…