My very small collection of Burgundy consists of village-level and 1er cru wines. Not big famous expensive 1er crus either. Not a single bottle above or even close to $100. And some Marsannay, Fixin, Givry 1er from various producers as well. None from the big names, but a lot that Burghound has rated around 90 and which CT ratings have been favorable. Mostly 1’s and 2’s bought given that I’m exploring…
My question is whether many of you have drunk these types of wine with a lot of age and whether they develop the same kind of balance and complexity you would look for in a GC. Give me some examples. I’m aware I can’t afford Amoureuses or DRC, so don’t rub it in. I’m largely wondering whether this is a good buying strategy as I get into Burgundy, holding lesser wines for the long haul and hoping for the best .
I had a 1999 Truchot Chambolle Musigny Sentiers and a 1976 Ampeau Volnay Caillerets this week and both were wonderful. Many, many 1er crus and village wines age well. A lot depends on producer and vintage, give some examples.
The longevity of the wines you mentioned varies a lot. It depends on the vintage and the producer.
2005 i.e. is a vintage with a long lifespan even at village and 1er Cru level. 2007 not so. These wines are probably better now than in 10 or even 15 years. In general. Exceptions excluded. The same with 2009 and 2010. While the 2009 wines are probably the better wines when you open them from now until 2020 most 2010 wines will be more enjoyable from 2020/2025 onwards.
Furthermore you have to know if you really like older wines. This is not a given. The general rule is – better you open a wine a bit to early than too late. I would suggest to open village level Burgundy from a very good year at age 10+ and Premier Crus from year 15+. In years like 2004, 2007 … I would open a bottle 5 years earlier to check in what condition the wine is.
But have always in mind: wine is sometimes full of surprises.
Would enthusiastically agree with the strategy of ageing village and 1er Crus, just don’t expect a Fiat to morph into a Ferrari if you keep it 30 years! What you don’t say is how long you mean by ‘long term’. I’ve had some stunning village wines from the 1970s, 60s, 50s and even 40s - but imagine the disappointment of keeping a bottle 40+ years only to find you don’t like the mature article. I’ve had some very good current drinking from wines like Bachelet’s Gevrey VV 2005, Sylvie Esmonin’s Gevrey VV 2005, Fourrier’s village cuvees in 2006, Lafarge 2002, Rouget’s Vosne village 2005, Confuron Cotetidot’s Vosne Suchots 2007… Decent, mid-range, kit from 2006, say, shouldn’t cost you too much. I’d suggest you source some and drink it, possibly alongside the same wine from a younger vintage. See what you make of the evolution and if you like the direction in which the wine’s going. If the improvement is worth it to you, continue with the present buying plan.
Jurgen: I definitely like older wines, maybe past their primes in some cases.
Howard: something’s I’ve picked up recently at auction or otherwise:
2005 M. Ecard SLB Serpentieres
1998 P. Naddef G-C Champeaux
2000 Chauvenet- Chopin NSG Aux Thorey
2003 N. Potel Chambolle Aux Exhanges
2005 Besson Givry Petit Pretan
2006 Vougeraie G-C Les Evocelles
2005 and 2010 H. Gouges NSG
For example.
I would expect the Ecard and Gouges to age well. In fact, the biggest issue you may have with Gouges is that it will age too well. I have never had a wine from Gouges that actually has matured. I like Potel’s wines, but have no idea what will happen with 2003s - and neither does anyone else IMHO. My guess is that some will fall apart and others will become quite wonderful with age.
The other producers I don’t really know. The 2000 (based on vintage, not producer) is probably something to drink sooner rather than later.
Are these producers you know or have experience with? If not, why are you buying them? There are some really good wine stores in the DC area (where I see you live) that can really guide your Burgundy buying and help you learn what you like. A lot of Burgundy buying is subjective. For example, go to Weygandt wines and talk with Tim or Warren, to Arrowine and talk with Doug or Shem and to Bassins and talk with Phil. Also, for a recommendation on a producer whose wines I think provide good value try Dublere (as far as I know available in DC only at Schneiders). I have not had any older wines from Blair (my first wines were 2007 and I think his first vintage was about 2002 or so) but the wines taste wonderful young and are very fairly priced.
Howard: I know Tim and Warren, Phil at Bassins and the entire Gunderson family. Maybe a third of what I have in Burgundy is from them, purchased locally; a third is from online retailers where their purple prose has stimulated me to pull the trigger on an unknown; and a third is from auction where a review of CT ratings and a reasonable price convinced me to purchase a slightly older wine to try.
Mostly I’ve been trying to pull together a wide and varied selection of villages and producers to eventually narrow down my focus, once I find what I really like enough to invest in a case.
Noah,
I drink mostly in the range you describe.
You’ve already gotten good answers, but I’ll add the following.
I’ve had great experience with Ecard aging well; some of my favorite Burg drinking at home in the last few years has been Ecards '96s and '98s across Savigny.
Also, Jadot’s Beaune 1ers (Ursules, Teurons, Greves, Couchereaux) can be very good values that age well and can often be found in the $50-$75 range.
As Howard said, good luck on that 2010 Gouges in like 2040!
1er cru, IMO, is the sweet spot (albeit a very large one) of Burgundy. There is so much range within that. If you’re looking for good drinking experiences when they have some age (vs. mass tasting/drinking events with food), they will not disappoint you, as long as you have the time/focus to appreciate them. They will get lost with comparably aged trophy labeled wines, IMO…the nature of anything “trophy”. (And, I’m not sure that, other than the label satisfaction, the grand crus really offer that much more, ie, real value to most of us.)
Depending on your aging horizons, and your own goals, it might make more sense to locate these wines from older vintages…say…from 2006 on…or earlier, rather than buying new vintages. The wines you seem to have focused on shouldn’t have appreciated much since release…and might be better values with the head start.
I rarely look to grand crus for anything but special occasions or trying to make a “regular” occasion special. I look to villages and premier cru most times. I find it harder to grab a grand cru spontaneously because of the expectations and costs they have.
Bon voyage on the journey. Your ideas and your goal will, hopefully, evolve, as most peoples’ have, so…go slowly until you figure them out, I 'd say.
At a local retailer, I recently saw 02 Gouges NSG, opened it, drank it, went back to clean them out.
Such an excellent wine, and an eye opener for me regarding village wines with age.
Bern’s gives a pretty interesting view on the ageability of burgs. You can have village wines from the 50s and 60s that are vibrant and delicious. Leads me to believe that burgs, even at the lower levels live much longer than is generally expected. Many notes by Jeremy Holmes back that up. But remember, Berns’ cellar is 50 degrees, and that might make a real difference over a long period.
My own view is that red burgs, even at the village level, drink well for about fifty or sixty years. During that time period their development is not linear, so you might find a wine open at 25, closed again at 30 and then back open at 35. I think the real difference in the burg hierarchy is complexity rather than ageability (although that complexity gap is heightened over time). I bought a 78 and 85 Leroy D’Auvenay Bourgogne rouge last month. They had been stored at burgundy wine company since release and cost about $100 bucks each. I thought they might be dead, but I couldn’t resist. They were both remarkable. Not just full of life, but pristine, complex, fruity and mature. I don’t know why I should have been surprised as that is generally my experience with burgs, but I was.
there is overlap in quality between aged premier and grand cru wines, but, overall, grand cru beats premier hands down. Not every grand cru is mindbending, due to bottle variation and variable producer quality, but neither does every premier cru turn into a swan w/ age.
Noah, I believe that your strategy is right on the money. Unless one has lots of money to throw around, most grand crus (other than maybe Corton) are out of reach, as are the highly regarded 1er crus. There is, however, a huge amount of red Burgundy for under $50 that will age beautifully and take on additional complexity and, if you go off the beaten path, you can find such wines for $30ish. When I see comments to the effect of “F Burgundy, send your kids to college instead,” I have to believe that the author has very limited Burgundy experience, has not made the effort to learn and understand the region, or just doesn’t like Burgundy. I will also add that, in my experience, red Burgundy at all levels, properly handled, ages and improves for a long time - generally much longer than the critics estimate. Enjoying a bottle of aged grand cru is, of course, generally a great experience. However, when I drink those wines (which is not frequently, although I sell a lot of them), I feel compelled to focus and pay attention to them so that I can enjoy them to the fullest. Also, I feel compelled to enjoy them with others. Those occasions are limited for me at this stage of my life. On the other hand, I will readily open a 15 year-old bottle of Guillemot or Pavelot Savigny-Les-Beaune 1er cru, maybe even mid-week to accompany a simple meal with my wife and boys. I expect that we will hear from Alan Weinberg in this thread, but I rcall Alan mentioning several times on this board that he regrets not having bought and cellared more 1er cru red Burgundy (oops, Alan posted while I was typing and he didn’t mention this). My recommendation for real value in Burgundy is to look where others aren’t looking. Many producers and wines get discussed on this board and elsewhere over and over again. As a result, of course, they are pursued by many, even those with little or no Burgundy experience, and they become scarce and expensive. At the same time, there are gems to be found at half the price. I haven’t received an offer for Mugnier’s 2012s, but I expect that the villages Chambolle-Musigny will be around $100, while you can buy Cornu’s 2010 Ladoix 1er crus for $40 or $50. That’s an easy call if one isn’t drinking labels. I am getting long winded here, but, again, your strategy is sound.
You ask a very reasonable question (I wonder about this also), and there is a lot of wise advice being given here. The only thing I would add is to echo Howard’s question about how the 2000 Chauvenet-Chopin Thorey shows, and if you enjoy it, go get some more! The 2000 vintage is quite open right now and could conceivably be your go-to vintage, since you like wines mature and perhaps a bit past prime. I don’t know much about the 1998 vintage but perhaps the same thing applies.
Good luck, and post some TNs if you have good experiences.
Noah asked, “My question is whether many of you have drunk these types of wine with a lot of age and whether they develop the same kind of balance and complexity you would look for in a GC.”
The simple answer is usually not but sometimes yes.
That is not to say that village and premier cru wines are not ageworthy or collectible; many are and I wish I had bought more when I had the chance to do so.
But the thrill ride w/ aged grand cru is often greater.
Lots of wines to be found around $50 at 1er cru or village that can cellar well. If you can afford a few bottles around $100-125, you can get grand cru experience (at 1er or GC level), even with some age. I thought I might splurge once on DRC – maybe still possible – but what I’ve been able to find for about the price of a bottle of La Tache is even greater.
If you are on a budget, like most of us are, then stick to that budget. With a little bit of knowledge and persistence, you can build a great cellar and be better off for it by hanging onto your money until you get what you want. Great wine comes in many labels, and even if you are searching for a particular one you can likely find it in time at what you are willing to pay.
The second part of Noah’s question is “I’m largely wondering whether this is a good buying strategy as I get into Burgundy, holding lesser wines for the long haul and hoping for the best.” I believe that the simple answer to this is “yes,” and, if well chosen, the results will be very good.
I’m largely wondering whether this is a good buying strategy as I get into Burgundy, holding lesser wines for the long haul and hoping for the best .